improving MXUS 3000 V2

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by diggler » Feb 23 2015 12:17am

Good stuff.
Thanks for the tip.
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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by John in CR » Feb 23 2015 4:25am

Madin88,

Great work on the inside of the covers. It should add good turbulence and velocity at the copper for a higher coefficient of convective heat xfer from the stator to the inside surface of the shell. You increased the surface area too, so that moves the heat to better to the outside surface.

What do you plan to reject the heat from the outside surfaces? The options without opening the motor to the elements are:
1. Increase surface area.
2. Increase flow velocity and/or turbulence at the surfaces. 2 ways to do that are, blades on the outside which add surface area too, and using scoops or ducts to direct more air toward the motor.

FWIW I've been working with the factory of my motors for better heat xfer. Using a similar "dry" approach as yours, along with all of the on the exterior, we're conservatively estimating at least a 30% improvement in heat xfer for their scooters. That's a huge benefit in that market, because power is a primary selling point.

John

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by madin88 » Feb 23 2015 5:28am

thanks for the tips John.
i think first i will leave the outside as it is because on my cromotor it never was hot to the touch. as example 100°C on the windings and only 30-40°C on the sidecovers.
once i burn my fingers i will think of that. what i bother about is if the fan will keep its form at 100-110°C. can it withstand or will it melt?

another thing which would be helpful is white colour at the outside. while black colour absorbs almost all radiation heat from the sun, white only soaks up about 20% which would be very helpful in summer and also in winter if its sunny :)
for motor inside entirely black would be optimal (sure only very thin coating otherwise it works more as an insualtion).
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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by John in CR » Feb 23 2015 9:39pm

The final step to heat xfer is from the outside surface of the shell to the outside world. If that remains unchanged more heat can be moved only if the shell surface is hotter. Your effort so far will get the exterior surface somewhat hotter, just like the oil fill guys see. That will help with intermittent use, but also just like the oil guys see, at significant continuous performance the improvement is small.

Increase exterior surface area and/or direct more airflow at the motor, and it will move the same amount of heat at the lower temperature and more heat at the same temperature. I'm of the opinion that motors should be opened as few times as possible, so when I open a motor I do everything I can think of including the kitchen sink, and close it only to be opened when the bearings wear out. Those magnets have they're coating for good reason, and unless you've figured out a way to prevent the stator from scraping them during disassembly and assembly (please let me know if you figure that one out), then some damage is down however slight.

John

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by diggler » Feb 23 2015 10:44pm

Any body know where I can get the hall sensors?
I thought I was being very carful not to bend the wires a lot, but today just after I got the bundle through the axle I noticed one of the hall wires broke clean off the sensor. :evil:
Then I saw another wire on the middle hall was broke too.
V1 mxus 3000
thanks
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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by diggler » Feb 24 2015 1:27am

Are these the one's that come with it?
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... VVsyxcPmqw

I seen earlier someone mentioned upgrading to ss41a's.
Any thoughts?
GAS ELECTRIC FAT BIKE 49CC/3000W MXUS V1 18s Lipo 18 Fet BUILDING...http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=65638
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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by ohzee » Feb 24 2015 1:40am

Last time I needed some I ordered them from lyen.

http://lyen.com/ - he has the ss41's for 3$ a pop. prob a bit expensive , but at the time did not want to deal with possibly fakes.

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by GiantEV » Feb 24 2015 2:46am

I'm running 10ga wires to the stock wires right outside the motor and haven't had any issues with wires getting warm at 4500 Watts.

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by John in CR » Feb 24 2015 6:39am

Sorry I jinxed you and you ended up an example of the dangers of opening motors. I only had to mess with halls once, but after failed attempts starting with raw halls (I'm no good on fine soldering), I went with Ebikes.ca . Then you know definitively you get good ones, and they come pre-wired. Support our forum host when you can.

For phase wire upgrades, I've had the most success using 18ga magnet wire. That way I'm bringing one round wire bundle out of the axle with 4 layers of protective insulation, and the very high thermal limit of the wire coating on the insulation between phases. Stiff wire coming out of the motor is a non-issue in my builds, and I can convert to normal wire at the drip loop or anywhere up to the point that flexibility is needed.

When I crashed and mangled HubMonster's 6 phases into a single rats nest of copper, I tried to duplicate the factory's harness of 6 wires, the metric version of 10ga which is just under 10awg, but there was no way I was getting it thru the axle. That was without the fiberglass material outer sheath (or whatever that white fabric tube is they use). With the magnet wire I was able to get 9awg worth thru for the 6 phases.

The biggest pain in the ass about that route is being absolutely sure each has continuity end-to-end, so the outside ends are only taped until motor is assembled, and I check continuity multiple times during the process and take due care not to scuff the magnet wire varnish only to end up with a phase short down the road. Having to check continuity and better use of space are reasons to go with a nice size magnet wire.

John
Last edited by John in CR on Feb 24 2015 7:43pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by Relanium » Feb 24 2015 1:37pm

madin88 wrote:make sure the sealing ring does not chafe against the wire. i have removed the stock lock ring (very sharp and big risk of short circuit!!) and used a zip tie instead

Image
Damn man, just saw this thread and I already did what you mentioned today already.
That stupid ring already damaged outside of my cable so then I was wondering for about half an hour what to do with it and later replaced it with zip tie.
But I am still kind of worried about how damaged cable could be on the inside so upgrading wires is a must now (for me to sleep better at least).

And a question: did you leave stock bearing seal in there?

BTW: I also laced up the motor with your spokes today :) (still needs truing)

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by madin88 » Feb 24 2015 1:58pm

I did not change the bearings or additional sealing ring on the 4T motor. all stock.
on the 3T i will install FAG brand bearings which seem to have tighter sealing rings.

pleased to hear the spokes did fit :)
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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by John in CR » Feb 24 2015 7:51pm

To prevent spinning parts from damaging the wiring harness, I used to use zip ties, but they break and the zip head gets in the way. It's 18ga magnet wire to the rescue again. I can wrap it semi tight and push into small places for final tightening. I keep the 2 ends from shorting so I don't end up with a coil that I'm passing all that electricity through, though I don't know if that's important or not. I've never had that method fail, and some are over 5 years old.

John

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by diggler » Feb 25 2015 11:43pm

Justin said he didn't carry the prewired halls anymore but he sent me a link to some.
I just ordered 10 because that was where the price break was.
So I'll have plenty for boo boo's. :|
Might use the extras for brake switches too.
Read somewhere on here of someone using halls and little magnets they drilled right into the brake handle.
Works for brake light switches too.
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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by diggler » Feb 27 2015 11:13pm

okay got the two replaced and went to do the third.
But it's being a stickler about popping out of it's slot.
Is it appsolutely necessary to replace all three?
The wires on the third are holding up well.
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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by markz » Feb 27 2015 11:59pm

What is the link?

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by diggler » Feb 28 2015 12:57am

GAS ELECTRIC FAT BIKE 49CC/3000W MXUS V1 18s Lipo 18 Fet BUILDING...http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=65638
600W CAPACITIVE SPOT WELDER BUILDING... http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =2&t=66466
HOLANDIA BEACH CRUSER 1000W 9C ?TURN REBUILDING... no thread yet.
Next project will be 18" Iron Horse hard tail mid drive

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by diggler » Mar 10 2015 11:13pm

well I just tried the motor and yep that third hall is no good.
motor chugged then one time didn't move. gave it a spin and it chugged again.
I must have broke it trying to pry it out.
I'll be replacing that one tomorrow.
At least I just have to pop one cover off.
GAS ELECTRIC FAT BIKE 49CC/3000W MXUS V1 18s Lipo 18 Fet BUILDING...http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=65638
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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by madin88 » Mar 11 2015 4:43am

when i got my motors i noticed the hall sensor in the middle was about 2-3mm below the surface. check it. maybe this has a bad effect on performance..
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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by Allex » Mar 11 2015 8:10am

Really usefull thread Madin.
Great guide Tesla! But I would do those white PTFE wires even shorter. 8AWG is really overkill :mrgreen:

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by diggler » Mar 11 2015 7:42pm

just got done test riding! Woo! This thing is fast!
But I thought for sure I'd be able to go 50mph, I only got it up to 42. :lol:
That's fast enough for me.
That's 64.1 batt amps 119.8 phase amps. 18s lipo charged to 4.1v per cell. On 120% throttle
So yah it was that last hall.
I had to chip away at it with the flat head, sucker was really glued in good.
phase wires are 12 awg then 10awg once they get outside the axle.

What's the highest battery amps I can set the 18fet 4110 Infineon to?
Also what is the max phase amps do you think I should go?
GAS ELECTRIC FAT BIKE 49CC/3000W MXUS V1 18s Lipo 18 Fet BUILDING...http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... =6&t=65638
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HOLANDIA BEACH CRUSER 1000W 9C ?TURN REBUILDING... no thread yet.
Next project will be 18" Iron Horse hard tail mid drive

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by teslanv » Mar 11 2015 7:48pm

Crank the voltage up a bit. What is your tire diameter?
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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 11 2015 9:51pm

diggler wrote:just got done test riding! Woo! This thing is fast!
But I thought for sure I'd be able to go 50mph, I only got it up to 42. :lol:
That's fast enough for me.
That's 64.1 batt amps 119.8 phase amps. 18s lipo charged to 4.1v per cell. On 120% throttle
So yah it was that last hall.
I had to chip away at it with the flat head, sucker was really glued in good.
phase wires are 12 awg then 10awg once they get outside the axle.

What's the highest battery amps I can set the 18fet 4110 Infineon to?
Also what is the max phase amps do you think I should go?
Highest batt amp i have used on my 18 fets 4110 was 100A and 250A phase with max speed set to 99% ( not 100% because this is to avoid mosfet blow)

above 40mph what will limit your speed if you have the right motor turn is the batt amp.

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by icecube57 » Mar 11 2015 11:36pm

Its good to know this information. I was thinking about maxing out my setup at 18s and I can still get 40mph. Thats good enough to do what I want. Thanks for this info. Im running 65A battery which turns out to be 80A and 170A on the phase.

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by cal3thousand » Mar 12 2015 12:53pm

Doctorbass wrote:
diggler wrote:just got done test riding! Woo! This thing is fast!
But I thought for sure I'd be able to go 50mph, I only got it up to 42. :lol:
That's fast enough for me.
That's 64.1 batt amps 119.8 phase amps. 18s lipo charged to 4.1v per cell. On 120% throttle
So yah it was that last hall.
I had to chip away at it with the flat head, sucker was really glued in good.
phase wires are 12 awg then 10awg once they get outside the axle.

What's the highest battery amps I can set the 18fet 4110 Infineon to?
Also what is the max phase amps do you think I should go?
Highest batt amp i have used on my 18 fets 4110 was 100A and 250A phase with max speed set to 99% ( not 100% because this is to avoid mosfet blow)

above 40mph what will limit your speed if you have the right motor turn is the batt amp.

Doc

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Do you mean this is a setting on your controller? Why does the 1% margin save your controller from blowing?
Get a Cycle Analyst and a Multimeter, you're still a noob if you don't have at least one of each.

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Re: improving MXUS 3000 V2

Post by teslanv » Mar 12 2015 12:55pm

DD Hubs, Batteries, Controllers & Custom Ebikes.
http://westcoastelectrics.com
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USA

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