Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

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Phoenix13   10 mW

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Re: Programming APT AE96600 controller (UPDATE: don't buy..)

Post by Phoenix13 » Dec 26 2019 1:40am

I have the APT 72400 and it will cutout and shut off battery when using boost/sport mode. I'm not an engineer but I can work my way around software. I have not connected the controller to the software at this point.

Here's a pic of the controller and wiring on my 10kw yuma motor bike. This is an Alibaba electric motorcycle from Wuxi Saichi Industries which I just recieved a week ago.
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Is the APT 72400 an older controller? Is there a better controller for a 10kw yuma motor?

Any suggestions on how to correct the cutout?

Thanks in advance for any suggestion.

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Re: Programming APT AE96600 controller (UPDATE: don't buy..)

Post by amberwolf » Dec 26 2019 1:49am

First, if the battery is shutting off, rather than the controller, then that means the battery can't handle the curent draw from the controller in the higher power mode, so you need a better battery.

If it's the controller, not the battery, that shuts off, then if it's not bolted to a heatsink on it's flat side, then it doesn't have much of a place to get rid of the heat produced in higher power modes, so it might be shutting down from overheating.

INstead of zipties for mounting, I"d recommend securely bolting it to a sufficient heatsink that has its' fins in airflow, with just a very very very thin layer of thermal paste between the controller and heatsink, to see if it helps.

If you want to test for heat shutdowns before doing that, then if it's in an enclosed space, move it out into the airflow, see if it lasts longer before shutdown. Adding a fan moving a lot of air across the flat metal surface of the controller may help, too.

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Re: Programming APT AE96600 controller (UPDATE: don't buy..)

Post by larsb » Dec 26 2019 2:09am

@phoenix13: I’d appreciate you starting a new topic dedicated to your question as it’s not related in any way to programming apt96600.
Ride on!

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Re: Programming APT AE96600 controller (UPDATE: don't buy..)

Post by Phoenix13 » Dec 26 2019 5:42pm

Of course. I will move to a new thread. Thank you.

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Re: Programming APT AE96600 controller (UPDATE: don't buy..)

Post by Phoenix13 » Dec 26 2019 5:44pm

Thank you for the reply. I will attempt to remount and add a heat sink. Sadly it came that way from the factory.

Btw, I am moving this to a new post as it's not related to programming an APT AE96600.

amberwolf wrote:
Dec 26 2019 1:49am
First, if the battery is shutting off, rather than the controller, then that means the battery can't handle the curent draw from the controller in the higher power mode, so you need a better battery.

If it's the controller, not the battery, that shuts off, then if it's not bolted to a heatsink on it's flat side, then it doesn't have much of a place to get rid of the heat produced in higher power modes, so it might be shutting down from overheating.

INstead of zipties for mounting, I"d recommend securely bolting it to a sufficient heatsink that has its' fins in airflow, with just a very very very thin layer of thermal paste between the controller and heatsink, to see if it helps.

If you want to test for heat shutdowns before doing that, then if it's in an enclosed space, move it out into the airflow, see if it lasts longer before shutdown. Adding a fan moving a lot of air across the flat metal surface of the controller may help, too.

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Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by Phoenix13 » Dec 26 2019 5:52pm

Hi all.

I recently purchased an Alibaba.com Chinese electric motorcycle from Wuxi Saichi Industries which I just received a week ago. It's a 10kw Yuma motor with an APT 72400 controller and a 72v80ah lithium pack in a metal case and a Chinese made BMS. I am no expert on electric motorcycles but I have done some homework and understand the basics.

There are three drive modes and reverse... Sport, Drive & Park. When using the Sport mode within 5 minutes of riding at speeds no more than 50mph, the bike power shut off and stopped. It would not reset or come back on after waiting 30 minutes. Ultimately I walked it back to the house and left it for the night. The next day the bike power was working again, due to nothing I did. I took the bike out one more time to see if I could recreate the issue and sure enough it happened again after 5 minutes of running in Sport mode. Once I got it back to the house I plugged in the charger and that reset the power immediately.

Next I took apart the casings to look at the controller, wiring and battery to see if I could identify anything obvious. Well, the controller is zip tied to the frame and some of the wiring looks a bit questionable. I can see a sticker on the metal battery case that says 72v80ah but haven't pulled the case out yet.

Next I jacked the back wheel up to run some performance tests to see if I could reproduce the cutout issue without riding the bike. I ran the throttle on Sport mode at full speed (130kph) for 5+ minutes on high with no issues. I repeated this process several times and the bike would not cut power. The controller felt cool as did the battery case and motor each time.

My theory is that I am not putting stress and torque on the systems in my garage tests which may be what has caused the bike to cut power or overheat on my first road tests when I was riding it. I am not sure if it's the bms or controller cutting power. I am not sure how to identify the culprit.

I wasn't expecting to get Zero Motorcycle quality and had intended on upgrading things as I found the need to. I may be here already at day one.

I'll post some pics of the bike and systems to this post. Let me know what you guys think I should do about the power cutoff issue and is there anything I could do to improve the current setup?

I don't know much about the APT 72400 controller or if it is programmable with software (i couldn't find a manual online). I also don't know if the bms is right for that battery.

Any suggestions you experts can provide would be very helpful to point a new guy in the right direction. I'd be willing to upgrade parts if needed.

Thanks.
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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by SlowCo » Dec 26 2019 6:19pm

Leave the battery pack charging for a few hours longer then you think is needed. It might be that the pack is unbalanced ( not all cells at same voltage). Do this in a safe area as an unknown chinese battery pack that needs balancing could be a fire hazard.
Measure the final voltage of the battery pack when fully charged and balanced. A "72"V pack is 20S(eries)×4.2v(fully charged)=84v. It could be that the BMS balances at a little lower voltage (4.15V) so it might be slightly under 84V total.
Then try riding the bike again. Good luck and please update your findings.

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by amberwolf » Dec 26 2019 6:20pm

viewtopic.php?p=1517974#p1517975
First, if the battery is shutting off, rather than the controller, then that means the battery can't handle the curent draw from the controller in the higher power mode, so you need a better battery.

If it's the controller, not the battery, that shuts off, then if it's not bolted to a heatsink on it's flat side, then it doesn't have much of a place to get rid of the heat produced in higher power modes, so it might be shutting down from overheating.

INstead of zipties for mounting, I"d recommend securely bolting it to a sufficient heatsink that has its' fins in airflow, with just a very very very thin layer of thermal paste between the controller and heatsink, to see if it helps.

If you want to test for heat shutdowns before doing that, then if it's in an enclosed space, move it out into the airflow, see if it lasts longer before shutdown. Adding a fan moving a lot of air across the flat metal surface of the controller may help, too.

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by amberwolf » Dec 26 2019 6:41pm

Now, with the additional information in your new post, it sounds almost certainly like the battery itself is the issue, since you said the entire bike's power shuts off.

That means all lights and any other power as well, correct?


If so, then the BMS of your battery has shut down to protect it, for any of a number of reasons depending on BMS design. (overcurrent, overheating, undervoltage, etc). You can check this with a voltmeter on the output of the battery.

If not, and lighting power is still present, but the motor does not operate, then the battery is operating normally, and the controller is shutting down, probably from overheating, which you can test for as noted above.

But it sounds almost certainly like the battery is shutting off, because plugging the charger into it turns it back on, and that wouldn't happen from controller overheating.

Given that the factory didn't even make a mount for the controller, it is unlikely that they have any expensive central control unit monitoring everything, so it almost certainly is as simple as one of the above two things, which are both easy to check.


The most likely condition of battery shutoff and staying off a long time is undervoltage. Meaning, one or more cells is dropping so low in voltage that the BMS shuts off to prevent cell damage.

Generally this means either the cells are not balanced, and some of them are much lower than others, or all the cells are going low around the same time.

The former means that the battery is made of unmatched cells, potentially completely different kinds, but certainly different qualities, and will probably never perform as well as it would if made of matched equal-quality cells.

The latter usually means that the battery is made of cells that cannot support the power draw the controller and motor require to run in the mode it shutdsown in.

Sometimes it means that the charger is not fully charging any of the cells, either because the bms is designed for too low an hvc or because the charger is not a high enough voltage unit.

Except for the last problem, replacing the pack would be the best option in either case, to get the performance you expect from it. A DIY fix of replacing the worst cells can help, but replacing all of them might be the only way to really fix it.
Last edited by amberwolf on Dec 26 2019 7:46pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by SlowCo » Dec 26 2019 7:17pm

To add to the info already given: if the controller came "mounted" like that from the factory I would advise to check the whole bike for safety issues. Especially if all the bolts are tight and the brakes are working correctly... :shock:

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by Phoenix13 » Dec 26 2019 7:26pm

@amberwolf Yes complete power loss was the symptom. Turning the key from off to on multiple times did not restore power to the bike when it lost power both times.

I did several power and speed tests in the garage today and the battery is around 80%. I just took this reading.
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@slowco made the recommendation to fully charge the pack to ensure the new battery pack balances itself properly. I have not done that yet but will do later today then take another reading once charging is complete.

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by Phoenix13 » Dec 26 2019 7:29pm

@SlowCo Agreed.
SlowCo wrote:
Dec 26 2019 7:17pm
To add to the info already given: if the controller came "mounted" like that from the factory I would advise to check the whole bike for safety issues. Especially if all the bolts are tight and the brakes are working correctly... :shock:

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by Phoenix13 » Dec 26 2019 7:45pm

Additionally, the bike came with this plastic charger with this type of female end that plugs into the port on the bike..
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I bought the 72v cycle saturator which has the anderson plug to allow for adapters.
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Is there an anderson adapter for that type of charging cable/port?
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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by amberwolf » Dec 26 2019 7:53pm

i got pulled away by the dogs while editing this post
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=103889&p=1518107#p1518107
so there's more information /etc there now you may want to re-read it; was being edited before the posts between it and here were made.

since you have the satiator, you can eliminate possible probelms wtih the charger being unable to fully charge the pack (though this is unlielky to be the rpoblem). if you don't have another of teh charger ends, you can get some andersons from ebikes.ca if you don't have any, and cut half the cable off the charger output, put andersons on it's wries on each half of the cable so you can plug it back into that charger or into the satitoar.

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by Phoenix13 » Dec 26 2019 8:35pm

@amberwolf

Thank you for the addition details. Very helpful. I'll test the battery and create the anderson cable swap out you recommended. Great idea.

Is there a better bms for that pack I can install, something that provides better control and ever bluetooth for real time data analytics? Or how about a new 72v80ah pack with a smart bms? I don't mind buying a new pack if that's the ultimate fix.
amberwolf wrote:
Dec 26 2019 7:53pm
i got pulled away by the dogs while editing this post
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=103889&p=1518107#p1518107
so there's more information /etc there now you may want to re-read it; was being edited before the posts between it and here were made.

since you have the satiator, you can eliminate possible probelms wtih the charger being unable to fully charge the pack (though this is unlielky to be the rpoblem). if you don't have another of teh charger ends, you can get some andersons from ebikes.ca if you don't have any, and cut half the cable off the charger output, put andersons on it's wries on each half of the cable so you can plug it back into that charger or into the satitoar.

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by Phoenix13 » Dec 26 2019 9:09pm

I wrote the manufacture asking about their bms and received a reply. They said there is a protection plate inside the battery. They didn't want to call it a bms. I am not sure if a protection plate/board is the same thing as a battery management/monitoring system but they didn't provide much more detail than that. They haven't offered a suggestion to the power cut at this point. What do you guys think?

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by amberwolf » Dec 26 2019 9:23pm

They probably have no idea what's in the battery, as they probably didn't make it, they probably bought a pallet of them as cheap as they could from some other company that slapped them together out of parts from yet another company. Even if they do know what's in there, the language barrier is pretty hard to cross with technical stuff, even with poeple that are used to dealing with that on both sides.

Anyway, I'd test what you have first, to be sure it's not something fixable---but my guess is that as cheap as they went on that (ziptie for controller mount! seriously? :lol: ) that the battery is no better. You can test the individual cells or cell groups by using a voltmeter along the bms sense wires; see other battery test/ troulbeshooting threads for the complete procedure. best to test under a load, if you can create one high enough.

The BMS is probably not the issue, usually it's the cells themselves. There is a thread "bluetooth BMS" with discussion about at least two different ones that might do what you're after.

Lots of other threads about various BMSs as well. I don't have any specific brand/model advice, though, as I don't use a BMS on my main packs--the cells I'm using tend to stay balanced and operate safely enough without one...but there is a risk of destroying the cells doing this, by overdischarging...and damage to cells doing that can make them a fire risk later on. So I don't recommend "going naked", but there's a lot of crappy BMSs out there that can actually damage the cells due to poor manufacturing and/or design, when something goes wrong with the BMS. There's a recent thread about why certain types are a poorer choice of design than others; can't recall who created it though. It's probably in the battery technology section.



Before you can look into a new battery, first you'd need to find out what kind of power draw you actually have under worst-case situations and what kind of steady power draw there is in the harshest mode.

Once you know how much current the battery must supply, then you can begin looking for packs that can actually sustain that, that are well-built of well-matched good-quality cells. Or looking into how to build one yourself if you prefer.

Since the battery is the heart of the system, having to supply whatever the system needs to do what you ask of it, you have to know what you're asking before you can pick one. ;)

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by E-HP » Dec 26 2019 9:50pm

Perhaps the pack is made with crappy 1C cells, so only capable of 80 amps continuous. The BMS may be set at something conservative to protect the crappy cells (i.e. less than 80A). At 50mph, on a regular ebike, you'd be pulling something just shy of 5000W (70A). Given the extra weight of the bike and wheels, you may be pulling more than 80A. Can you open the pack and see what kind of cells are inside?

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by Phoenix13 » Dec 26 2019 9:56pm

@amberwolf I'll heed your advice and test the battery cells/groups and see what type of condition they are in.

Apart from a few dozen YouTube videos, I am relatively new to electric bikes and batteries, and this is my first hands on experience testing and taking the components apart. I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty and I truly appreciate all the helpful advice you (and others) are providing in order to point me in the right direction and help save me a little time and aggravation trying to trial & error my way through this issue.

Another question, how do I find out what kind of power draw I haven/need under worst-case situations and what kind of steady power draw I'll need in the harshest mode? Is there a practical/mechanical way to test this or calculate this data?
amberwolf wrote:
Dec 26 2019 9:23pm
They probably have no idea what's in the battery, as they probably didn't make it, they probably bought a pallet of them as cheap as they could from some other company that slapped them together out of parts from yet another company. Even if they do know what's in there, the language barrier is pretty hard to cross with technical stuff, even with poeple that are used to dealing with that on both sides.

Anyway, I'd test what you have first, to be sure it's not something fixable---but my guess is that as cheap as they went on that (ziptie for controller mount! seriously? :lol: ) that the battery is no better. You can test the individual cells or cell groups by using a voltmeter along the bms sense wires; see other battery test/ troulbeshooting threads for the complete procedure. best to test under a load, if you can create one high enough.

The BMS is probably not the issue, usually it's the cells themselves. There is a thread "bluetooth BMS" with discussion about at least two different ones that might do what you're after.

Lots of other threads about various BMSs as well. I don't have any specific brand/model advice, though, as I don't use a BMS on my main packs--the cells I'm using tend to stay balanced and operate safely enough without one...but there is a risk of destroying the cells doing this, by overdischarging...and damage to cells doing that can make them a fire risk later on. So I don't recommend "going naked", but there's a lot of crappy BMSs out there that can actually damage the cells due to poor manufacturing and/or design, when something goes wrong with the BMS. There's a recent thread about why certain types are a poorer choice of design than others; can't recall who created it though. It's probably in the battery technology section.

Before you can look into a new battery, first you'd need to find out what kind of power draw you actually have under worst-case situations and what kind of steady power draw there is in the harshest mode.

Once you know how much current the battery must supply, then you can begin looking for packs that can actually sustain that, that are well-built of well-matched good-quality cells. Or looking into how to build one yourself if you prefer.

Since the battery is the heart of the system, having to supply whatever the system needs to do what you ask of it, you have to know what you're asking before you can pick one. ;)
Last edited by Phoenix13 on Dec 26 2019 10:02pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by Phoenix13 » Dec 26 2019 10:01pm

@E-HP - Yes, I will take the pack out this weekend and see what type of cells were used then test them all. I have an old voltage meter, is there an industry standard/preferred voltage meter you can recommend that people trust for continuity?
E-HP wrote:
Dec 26 2019 9:50pm
Perhaps the pack is made with crappy 1C cells, so only capable of 80 amps continuous. The BMS may be set at something conservative to protect the crappy cells (i.e. less than 80A). At 50mph, on a regular ebike, you'd be pulling something just shy of 5000W (70A). Given the extra weight of the bike and wheels, you may be pulling more than 80A. Can you open the pack and see what kind of cells are inside?

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by amberwolf » Dec 26 2019 10:51pm

Phoenix13 wrote:
Dec 26 2019 9:56pm
Another question, how do I find out what kind of power draw I haven/need under worst-case situations and what kind of steady power draw I'll need in the harshest mode? Is there a practical/mechanical way to test this or calculate this data?
the only really good way is to measure it in the actual conditions with a wattmeter. if ther'es no wattmeter on the bike, you can install one, like the cycle analyst from grin tech, or any of the remote-shunt wattmeters available around the web (there are a number of threads with suggestions). the shunt goes between battery and controller, the display goes on the handlebars or tank or whatevfer, if you need to see it realtime. you don't have to permanently mount it, as you likely won't need it except for testing like this, unless you just like to use it to keep track of power usage, mlieage, etc.

peak currents don't really matter mch if theyre just a few seconds. but if they go on veyr long, the voltage drop and wasted energy in the cells makes them heat up if they're not able to take it, and can be one reason for pack shutdown, if the bms is watching for that.

so continouus current over longer periods, combined with voltage sag (meaning how much the voltage drops under load vs at rest), is what you'd want to monitor.

you don't necesarily need exact numbers, just a good idea of how bad the sag is (down to 75v? 70v? 55v? etc) at how high a current (30A? 50A? 100? etc), and around how long it stays there.

You could use just a voltmeter and an amp meter, rather than a wattmeter, but the wattmeter has other useful features including showin you the actaul wattage which can be useful too, and if it's like the cycle analyst then using the speedometer sensor as well will give you wh/mile efficiecny / power usage numbers, which is convenient (but can be calaculated from your odometer and the total wh or ah on a regular wattmeter if you like).



you don't need really accurate voltage readings, just good ones, so prettymuch any voltmeter, even a cheap harborfregith unit, works fine as long as it's battery is good. (low battery reads higher than actaul voltages).

mostly you want to know the whle pack voltage, and then each individual cell group, measured between the bms wires to the cells. testing this after a charge odesnt' say much other than if the bms is balancing them or not, but testing after a ride, especially after a shutodwn, may tell you if there's a balnce prolem or a general pack problem. testing durigna ride would be bettter but not practical at the speeds you have to go to cause the problem. but you can build a test load out of heaters or stove elements or lamps, etc., that can pull enough current to simulate it while parked.

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by Phoenix13 » Dec 27 2019 12:02am

Thanks for the extra info @amberwolf. First I'll test all the cells/groups since I have the bike apart and I'd like to pull the battery pack for my own edification. Once I test the cells/groups, I'll put it back into the bike and use the cycle analyst from Grin Tech as the wattmeter and ride under load with the cycle analyst attached(if that's what you mean). I ordered an XLR panel from ebikes.ca to replace the charging panel on the bike so I can use the cycle analyst for charging or a wattmeter (rather than making Anderson connectors for the old charger since the cycle analyst already comes with an XLR adapter). I have not used the cycle analyst as a wattmeter, will it log the activity in memory or will I need to read it in real-time? Not entirely sure how it will power itself during riding if I am plugging it into the charging port on th bike. That leaves the power cable dangling lol. Thanks for keeping up with my noob'ish questions. I really appreciate it.
amberwolf wrote:
Dec 26 2019 10:51pm
Phoenix13 wrote:
Dec 26 2019 9:56pm
Another question, how do I find out what kind of power draw I haven/need under worst-case situations and what kind of steady power draw I'll need in the harshest mode? Is there a practical/mechanical way to test this or calculate this data?
the only really good way is to measure it in the actual conditions with a wattmeter. if ther'es no wattmeter on the bike, you can install one, like the cycle analyst from grin tech, or any of the remote-shunt wattmeters available around the web (there are a number of threads with suggestions). the shunt goes between battery and controller, the display goes on the handlebars or tank or whatevfer, if you need to see it realtime. you don't have to permanently mount it, as you likely won't need it except for testing like this, unless you just like to use it to keep track of power usage, mlieage, etc.

peak currents don't really matter mch if theyre just a few seconds. but if they go on veyr long, the voltage drop and wasted energy in the cells makes them heat up if they're not able to take it, and can be one reason for pack shutdown, if the bms is watching for that.

so continouus current over longer periods, combined with voltage sag (meaning how much the voltage drops under load vs at rest), is what you'd want to monitor.

you don't necesarily need exact numbers, just a good idea of how bad the sag is (down to 75v? 70v? 55v? etc) at how high a current (30A? 50A? 100? etc), and around how long it stays there.

You could use just a voltmeter and an amp meter, rather than a wattmeter, but the wattmeter has other useful features including showin you the actaul wattage which can be useful too, and if it's like the cycle analyst then using the speedometer sensor as well will give you wh/mile efficiecny / power usage numbers, which is convenient (but can be calaculated from your odometer and the total wh or ah on a regular wattmeter if you like).

you don't need really accurate voltage readings, just good ones, so prettymuch any voltmeter, even a cheap harborfregith unit, works fine as long as it's battery is good. (low battery reads higher than actaul voltages).

mostly you want to know the whle pack voltage, and then each individual cell group, measured between the bms wires to the cells. testing this after a charge odesnt' say much other than if the bms is balancing them or not, but testing after a ride, especially after a shutodwn, may tell you if there's a balnce prolem or a general pack problem. testing durigna ride would be bettter but not practical at the speeds you have to go to cause the problem. but you can build a test load out of heaters or stove elements or lamps, etc., that can pull enough current to simulate it while parked.

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amberwolf   100 GW

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by amberwolf » Dec 27 2019 1:03am

Phoenix13 wrote:
Dec 27 2019 12:02am
Once I test the cells/groups, I'll put it back into the bike and use the cycle analyst from Grin Tech as the wattmeter and ride under load with the cycle analyst attached(if that's what you mean). I ordered an XLR panel from ebikes.ca to replace the charging panel on the bike so I can use the cycle analyst for charging
The CA, to measure charging, would have to go between charger and battery. But to measure discharging, must go between battery and controller.

Since the Satiator already has a wattmeter built in, there's not a compelling reason to use the CA to measure charging, so it's simpler to put the CA's standalone shunt between controller and battery to measure just discharging.


or a wattmeter (rather than making Anderson connectors for the old charger since the cycle analyst already comes with an XLR adapter).

I haven't seen the XLR adapter for the CA (which is a wattmeter), just the Satiator (which is a charger).
I have not used the cycle analyst as a wattmeter, will it log the activity in memory or will I need to read it in real-time?

Some of the generic power meters log information, and some dont. I don't know anyd etails of any of them so can't say which would.

The CA remembers max and min for some things, so Amin is the minimum current seen, including any regen braking current that will show as negative. Amax is the maximum current seen but this includes even very very short peaks, and doesn't distinguish between that and a long high (but not as high as the peak) current draw. Watts are not logged at all, only realtime. Vmin (voltage sag) is logged, though Vmax (full charge) is not.

So to see the info needed to know what the battery has to handle, you pretty much want to be able to look at it realtime, even if it's just a glance during the highest power usage parts of teh ride, and keeping the basic number in mind.

The battery's response in votlage sag you can see with the logged Vmin, more or less, comparing that to the present-time voltage reading, after you stop, so it doens't have to be seen realtime, though it may be useful to see it during the ride at the same time as the amps.

The Satiator rememvbers the last charge cycle data, as well as lifetime data on any particular charging profile, if you use omre than one they're separate.

Not entirely sure how it will power itself during riding if I am plugging it into the charging port on th bike.
The CA would still be powered by the battery from that port, but as noted above, you would need to put it between battery and controller to measure things during a ride, vs during charging.

I think you might be confusing the Cycle Satiator (charger) and Cycle Analyst (power meter/etc).

If you get a CA vs a generic power meter with remote shunt, then for the mtorocycle you probably don't need the v3.x, the v2.x would work fine, you just have to maek sure to get the SA (standalone) model, since your controller won't have a connector built in to hook i tup to.

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by larsb » Dec 27 2019 3:23am

I think i saw your video the other day. If the range is so extremely low and you get cutouts at full throttle then unbalanced battery is a strong candidate. Open the battery, measure voltage of each cell. If there’s a cell that stands out then

1) cell is damaged and needs replacement. You could measure the sag on this cell after balancing the pack and emptying it through riding. If it is lower than the rest of the pack after balancing and riding then probably you’d need a new pack (since finding the same cell type for replacement might be impossible)

2) cell is just out of balance but not damaged. Yey! Charge the cell to match the rest or discharge the rest to match the cell. Charge as normal. Have a beer and enjoy your new extended range!
Ride on!

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Re: Power Loss on New eMotorcycle

Post by Phoenix13 » Dec 27 2019 11:10am

Yes I did confuse the satiator with the analyst. I completely understand now and looked up the analyst details online, specifically the stand alone. Thanks for the clarification and extra level of details. I absolutely understand what I need to do now. I'll post my findings over the next few days.
amberwolf wrote:
Dec 27 2019 1:03am
Phoenix13 wrote:
Dec 27 2019 12:02am
Once I test the cells/groups, I'll put it back into the bike and use the cycle analyst from Grin Tech as the wattmeter and ride under load with the cycle analyst attached(if that's what you mean). I ordered an XLR panel from ebikes.ca to replace the charging panel on the bike so I can use the cycle analyst for charging
The CA, to measure charging, would have to go between charger and battery. But to measure discharging, must go between battery and controller.

Since the Satiator already has a wattmeter built in, there's not a compelling reason to use the CA to measure charging, so it's simpler to put the CA's standalone shunt between controller and battery to measure just discharging.


or a wattmeter (rather than making Anderson connectors for the old charger since the cycle analyst already comes with an XLR adapter).

I haven't seen the XLR adapter for the CA (which is a wattmeter), just the Satiator (which is a charger).
I have not used the cycle analyst as a wattmeter, will it log the activity in memory or will I need to read it in real-time?

Some of the generic power meters log information, and some dont. I don't know anyd etails of any of them so can't say which would.

The CA remembers max and min for some things, so Amin is the minimum current seen, including any regen braking current that will show as negative. Amax is the maximum current seen but this includes even very very short peaks, and doesn't distinguish between that and a long high (but not as high as the peak) current draw. Watts are not logged at all, only realtime. Vmin (voltage sag) is logged, though Vmax (full charge) is not.

So to see the info needed to know what the battery has to handle, you pretty much want to be able to look at it realtime, even if it's just a glance during the highest power usage parts of teh ride, and keeping the basic number in mind.

The battery's response in votlage sag you can see with the logged Vmin, more or less, comparing that to the present-time voltage reading, after you stop, so it doens't have to be seen realtime, though it may be useful to see it during the ride at the same time as the amps.

The Satiator rememvbers the last charge cycle data, as well as lifetime data on any particular charging profile, if you use omre than one they're separate.

Not entirely sure how it will power itself during riding if I am plugging it into the charging port on th bike.
The CA would still be powered by the battery from that port, but as noted above, you would need to put it between battery and controller to measure things during a ride, vs during charging.

I think you might be confusing the Cycle Satiator (charger) and Cycle Analyst (power meter/etc).

If you get a CA vs a generic power meter with remote shunt, then for the mtorocycle you probably don't need the v3.x, the v2.x would work fine, you just have to maek sure to get the SA (standalone) model, since your controller won't have a connector built in to hook i tup to.

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