My battery building business...need your help

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
rg12   100 kW

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My battery building business...need your help

Post by rg12 » Sep 07 2018 9:46pm

Hey guys,

My business for the last two years has been building custom li ion battery packs.
Now that I'm well established locally (Israel) I thought about looking more global.
My main issues are shipping costs and warranty since the weight is pretty high and that's where I would like to get some help from you guys.

The packs we are building are not cheap as we are not Chinese men power nor Chinese quality.
We are now working 95% with Samsung 25R (8C) as a standard, custom BMS (mostly 150A constant current (depending on capacity)) and our main customers are ebike lovers with high powered systems (74V and up).

I'm a perfectionist with OCD and that combination is what developed the quality and performance of our battery packs.
I did some research and I couldn't find a li ion battery pack that can handle such currents and is of a high quality as ours (not looking to brag here) and that's why I think that we do have a place in the global market.
The question again is, how do I overcome the shipping/warranty problem?
We are building sometimes 74V 45Ah battery packs for enduro frames and that battery weighs 20kg+

Here are some photos of our work:
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999zip999   100 GW

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 08 2018 9:55am

What controller are you using at what amperage. Plus what motor are you using. How many spot welds per psck ?

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by rg12 » Sep 08 2018 10:41am

999zip999 wrote:
Sep 08 2018 9:55am
What controller are you using at what amperage. Plus what motor are you using. How many spot welds per psck ?
We do so many kinds of packs and each has it's own setup.
For the big packs, those double stack ones that go into enduro frames that work up to 150A constant current we use QS205 motor or bigger.
For controllers, 150A Sabvoton suck, also Kelly's are meh, their acceleration is super weak and the Sabvoton is the most fragile controller ever, it can die from static electricity and it costs a fortune with terrible support.
We started working with ASI Controllers, made in Canada, best controller in the universe, nothing more to add to that.
Me and many of my friends use an 80A Greentime controller and solder the shunt and we pull about 110-120A and it survives a long time even in our super hot summer and that controller has the sickest acceleration on the planet.
We use sometimes a 24S 88.8 (100.8V) with that Greentime which is the limit for it (100V) and that is a sick power freak.

How many spot welds per pack? you probably ask how many per cell, well 3 on each side (6 little dots).

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 08 2018 3:14pm

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=85156
I use the 18 fet maybe you can have him beef up a 24fet. Bluetooth and Extras if wanted .
Your batteries are intense good work.

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by rg12 » Sep 08 2018 5:53pm

999zip999 wrote:
Sep 08 2018 3:14pm
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=85156
I use the 18 fet maybe you can have him beef up a 24fet. Bluetooth and Extras if wanted .
Your batteries are intense good work.
For that price I rather go with the ASI, they are a whole other level.
and thanks man :)

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 08 2018 6:46pm

What's the high power Samsung 25r 8 C cell how hi amp are your series buss bars. Not that I would use a 20-amp cell at 20 amps so I guess the question is what average am I using the Samsung 25r cell . Or what amps can your buss bars handle. As nobody wants to heat buss bars or cells
Last edited by 999zip999 on Sep 08 2018 7:38pm, edited 1 time in total.

rg12   100 kW

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by rg12 » Sep 08 2018 7:32pm

999zip999 wrote:
Sep 08 2018 6:46pm
What's the high power Samsung 25r 8 C cell how hi amp are your series best bars. Not that I would use a 20-amp cell at 20 amps so I guess the question is what average am I using the Samsung 25r cell . Or what amps can your buss bars handle. As nobody wants to heat buss bars or cells
Usually the minimum capacity for those double stack packs with the bus bars on top is about 25-30Ah running up to 45Ah at 72V
Sometime 88.8V (24S) up to 40Ah so at 40Ah if you pull 150A you use about half the C rate of the cell.
I allow a max of 75% of the cell advertised C rate to be used in each build.
Let's say that non of my packs ever heat above room temperature, maybe in super rare cases on 200A bursts they get slightly warm but nothing more than that.
One of my customers pulls 110A from a 20Ah 72V 8C pack and its cold all the time, even after an insane beating.
It's all in the build and conductivity, the cells themselves are amazing but with shitty work you make those little ferraris into hyundays.

Watch this vid of me and the guys on a 2 day insane ebike roadtrip in the desert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cBiYiBOzH8
The guy doing the burnout has the pack shown in the first photo (the one with the copper laying in two rows on top), it's a 55Ah 72V 8C pack with the "usual" 150A constant current BMS and 300A burst option.
Most killer build on the planet, never rode something more thrilling than that since it has the amazing ASI controller and since it's longer than a crew ship, it never lifts the front so you can just whack the throttle and then make a u-turn to pick your balls up.

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 08 2018 7:46pm

Thank you I get ! Im 6'3" 240lb. and 60yrs old. I dont wear a helmut and or wrist elbow Anna Turtle back in case I slide out I lay on the turtle back you seen those bro. Yes I like your batteries but I've had some ideas about power sharing in the series connection. As a jeweler I couldn't laminate a copper bus bar on top and it agrees that would melt solder and leave a hole in the positive and rear end so you can spot Weld and since the high conductibility of the copper solder to the nickel plate all the energy should go to Nickel Plate if the hole is a proper size and and and hopeful

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by 999zip999 » Sep 08 2018 7:48pm

So nickel for spot welding with copper bus bars and holes over the cells so the spot water can spot well to the cells big question ?
Lol.Ride On.

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by rg12 » Sep 08 2018 8:02pm

999zip999 wrote:
Sep 08 2018 7:48pm
So nickel for spot welding with copper bus bars and holes over the cells so the spot water can spot well to the cells big question ?
Lol.Ride On.
Kinda didn't understand some of what you wrote but I guess you are asking how the end nickels connect to the busbars.
If that is the question then they are connected with pressure from top and bottom, the busbars are hand made from two separate thick copper strips and are compressed with two sets of bolts and nuts for each nickel.

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by rg12 » Sep 08 2018 8:33pm

Back to our topic...
How much of a future do you guys think our batteries (which are super high end, brand and custom made by request) will have in the US market if a 72V 40Ah Samsung 8C 150A constant current BMS costs $2800 with additional $260 DHL shipping to the US.

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by icherouveim » Sep 09 2018 2:36am

Good morning!

Bravo, you build very nice dream huge battery packs!

Do you use nickel strip 10x0,2mm or 10x0,3mm?

Do you get a good cycle life from samsung 25R cells? A huge pack helps to increase cycle life because you don't stress the cells but as a cell I've read and it is reported by other ES owners it has short cycle life compare to newer cells.

I was searching a lot about the best high power cells and it came out the best high power 18650 cell available at the moment is the Sony VTC5A with the lower internal resistance.

I am writing this because I can see you like high power cells. There are some upcoming cells that are very very promising. At the reviews they say the best cells ever produced.

VTC6A

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/threa ... 5a.849291/

the next cell is already available and is the most powerful 18650 cell ever produced for 2000mah capacity

Samsung INR18650-20S 2000mAh - 30A

https://www.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650- ... h-30a.html

I've watched your video. Is it easy to set up an ASI Controller? Do you use their big 8000w version? Have you found a compatible screen for it?

About the shipping a Chinese company told me the cheapest way to transfer batteries in Europe is ARAMEX courier company, have you ever checked their rates? They told me they have sent 45kg battery pack to Italy for only 120 euros.

About the prices if you check how much other companies or custom made builders charge here in ES forum then you can be competitive.

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flippy   1 MW

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by flippy » Sep 09 2018 3:44am

please take note from a fellow battery building company but based in europe.

pricing is too high, i know the actual cost and low volume requires a pretty markup but your current markup is too high for outside your country where these prices are probably acceptable.
for example: i build your example of a 72v 40Ah battery for ~2000 USD excluding shipping. that is 800 less then you.


i also see some serious beginners mistakes in welding and possible lifespan issues of physical construction.
i dont like discussing these things in public. please contact me in private because these batteries you showed will not last long if you dont change your building techniques.

i also build for bigger commerical applications so my standards might be higher but there is no reason for not trying to make a better and safer product.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by rg12 » Sep 09 2018 7:46am

If you are talking about the myth of having the parallel strip under the series and that it lowers conductivity and generates heat then that is not true and doesn't make any sense.
The cell itself is not made of nickel and is not more conductive than the nickel so having a thin nickel between the cell and the nickel in series doesn't add up resistance and I never have any heating issues, not even warm under hugh amp draws.
I mostly use a nickel strip that has the parallel and series in the pattern so nothing goes over anything but still it doesn't have any effect on resistance.

About build strength, the photos show the inside, they end up as one touch brick that nothing has the chance to move a tenth of a millimeter and those packs stood the test of time in extreme off road situations.
Not all commercial use packs use spacers, for example most silverfish don't and they go through a beating with no suspension and people carrying them around and dropping them.

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by rg12 » Sep 09 2018 8:05am

icherouveim wrote:
Sep 09 2018 2:36am
Good morning!

Bravo, you build very nice dream huge battery packs!

Do you use nickel strip 10x0,2mm or 10x0,3mm?

Do you get a good cycle life from samsung 25R cells? A huge pack helps to increase cycle life because you don't stress the cells but as a cell I've read and it is reported by other ES owners it has short cycle life compare to newer cells.

I was searching a lot about the best high power cells and it came out the best high power 18650 cell available at the moment is the Sony VTC5A with the lower internal resistance.

I am writing this because I can see you like high power cells. There are some upcoming cells that are very very promising. At the reviews they say the best cells ever produced.

VTC6A

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/threa ... 5a.849291/

the next cell is already available and is the most powerful 18650 cell ever produced for 2000mah capacity

Samsung INR18650-20S 2000mAh - 30A

https://www.nkon.nl/rechargeable/18650- ... h-30a.html

I've watched your video. Is it easy to set up an ASI Controller? Do you use their big 8000w version? Have you found a compatible screen for it?

About the shipping a Chinese company told me the cheapest way to transfer batteries in Europe is ARAMEX courier company, have you ever checked their rates? They told me they have sent 45kg battery pack to Italy for only 120 euros.

About the prices if you check how much other companies or custom made builders charge here in ES forum then you can be competitive.
The nickel thickness depends on the current and amount of cells in parallel.

I have seen the 25R performing amazing after long periods of use, it's my favorite cell for high power and my main one since I do 90% high power packs.
There are some new cells as you mentioned and I'm sure they are great but they are 50-70% more expensive and they are not 50-70% better so if it's for one pack for yourself then sure, go all out with your cash but for a business it's different, especially when there is no need since I do mostly high capacity that doesn't even come close to maxing the cell's rated C rate.
2000mAh cells are not good for ebike use, the capacity is too low.

About the ASI controller, it's not mine, it's my colleague's controller and he said that if you thought that Sabvoton has many settings then that thing takes it to school although he didn't have a hard time with it.
It's the 4000W pulling up to 220A (he pulls on bursts 180-200A) and that thing is amazing, it's so quiet, and so not twitchy and at the same time not too tamed like the Sabvoton which has shit acceleration, that thing gives you the control over low speeds while having so much power at the same time.

I will check with Aramex, thanks alot :)

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by flippy » Sep 09 2018 8:53am

rg12 wrote:
Sep 09 2018 7:46am
If you are talking about the myth of having the parallel strip under the series and that it lowers conductivity and generates heat then that is not true and doesn't make any sense.
The cell itself is not made of nickel and is not more conductive than the nickel so having a thin nickel between the cell and the nickel in series doesn't add up resistance and I never have any heating issues, not even warm under hugh amp draws.
I mostly use a nickel strip that has the parallel and series in the pattern so nothing goes over anything but still it doesn't have any effect on resistance.

About build strength, the photos show the inside, they end up as one touch brick that nothing has the chance to move a tenth of a millimeter and those packs stood the test of time in extreme off road situations.
Not all commercial use packs use spacers, for example most silverfish don't and they go through a beating with no suspension and people carrying them around and dropping them.
i already sent you a PM about this and your personal belief in thinking your products are perfect does not magically make it so.
you asked for help with your business and now you start complaning if you are getting some from someone that does this a lot longer and with much bigger batteries then cute little bike batteries? grow up if you want to be taken seriously as a business. i am just helping you prevent you making some of the mistakes i made in the past.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by rg12 » Sep 09 2018 9:19am

flippy wrote:
Sep 09 2018 8:53am
rg12 wrote:
Sep 09 2018 7:46am
If you are talking about the myth of having the parallel strip under the series and that it lowers conductivity and generates heat then that is not true and doesn't make any sense.
The cell itself is not made of nickel and is not more conductive than the nickel so having a thin nickel between the cell and the nickel in series doesn't add up resistance and I never have any heating issues, not even warm under hugh amp draws.
I mostly use a nickel strip that has the parallel and series in the pattern so nothing goes over anything but still it doesn't have any effect on resistance.

About build strength, the photos show the inside, they end up as one touch brick that nothing has the chance to move a tenth of a millimeter and those packs stood the test of time in extreme off road situations.
Not all commercial use packs use spacers, for example most silverfish don't and they go through a beating with no suspension and people carrying them around and dropping them.
i already sent you a PM about this and your personal belief in thinking your products are perfect does not magically make it so.
you asked for help with your business and now you start complaning if you are getting some from someone that does this a lot longer and with much bigger batteries then cute little bike batteries? grow up if you want to be taken seriously as a business. i am just helping you prevent you making some of the mistakes i made in the past.
I'm open to critic as there is always room for improvement but there are technical things that we don't agree about I guess.

Saying that my packs are "cute little bike batteries", well, thats my cute little market I guess and the fact that you build bigger packs for whatever use doesn't give you the right to disrespect others by mocking the size of their business and I don't even need to reply about such remark, people see that and it doesn't give you any points as a person, especially telling me to grow up and speak to me like you know who I am.
There are two ways to give critic, the one that motivates a person to listen to you and the one that disrespects and doesn't really help and just helps your aggressive personality to come out.
It's not just about this thread, you have alot of knowledge but you pass it in a way that is disrespectful and then that knowledge doesn't really pass on to the person you are talking to.

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by flippy » Sep 09 2018 10:43am

for a person in a shed making a battery for a hobby is fine and you make good stuff from that point of view, but once you go commercial and start making money you need to hold yourself to a higher standard and then i am fully in my right as a observer looking at a commercial product to give my opinion of said product, especially if said product breaks regulations. you are not a guy in a shed doing this for his hobby but you are doing it as a entrepenour trying to make money of this. and you are making plenty of money on these batteries to increase the quality and safety of the produtct and still not lose a lot of profit.

you may not like what i am saying but as a business you need to develop some skin to take criticism like this. either from me or from a pissed of customer that is yelling at you because his bike burned to the ground.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by rg12 » Sep 09 2018 11:16am

flippy wrote:
Sep 09 2018 10:43am
for a person in a shed making a battery for a hobby is fine and you make good stuff from that point of view, but once you go commercial and start making money you need to hold yourself to a higher standard and then i am fully in my right as a observer looking at a commercial product to give my opinion of said product, especially if said product breaks regulations. you are not a guy in a shed doing this for his hobby but you are doing it as a entrepenour trying to make money of this. and you are making plenty of money on these batteries to increase the quality and safety of the produtct and still not lose a lot of profit.

you may not like what i am saying but as a business you need to develop some skin to take criticism like this. either from me or from a pissed of customer that is yelling at you because his bike burned to the ground.
Thanks for the tip but I already developed enough skin to turn me from a super soft person to this nice but a bit aggressive person...I guess it comes with time in business.
I take critic and I even ask for it but there are ways that don't make a person wanna listen to you.
Like calling a fat woman "hey fatty, what don't you go to the gym?" thats just being an ass and she ain't gonna better herself.

About the quality, I'm not saving on anything, I always add and improve the batteries without raising the cost for the customer.
As I said, I listen to critic but I don't always agree with it.

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by Joachim » Sep 09 2018 1:01pm

flippy wrote:
Sep 09 2018 10:43am
for a person in a shed making a battery for a hobby is fine and you make good stuff from that point of view, but once you go commercial and start making money you need to hold yourself to a higher standard and then i am fully in my right as a observer looking at a commercial product to give my opinion of said product, especially if said product breaks regulations. you are not a guy in a shed doing this for his hobby but you are doing it as a entrepenour trying to make money of this. and you are making plenty of money on these batteries to increase the quality and safety of the produtct and still not lose a lot of profit.

you may not like what i am saying but as a business you need to develop some skin to take criticism like this. either from me or from a pissed of customer that is yelling at you because his bike burned to the ground.
what is the name of the big battery company you have?i,am looking for big Lithium batteries for my e-scooters...i dont have the time and the big machine for this big batteries :|

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by flippy » Sep 09 2018 3:18pm

Joachim wrote:
Sep 09 2018 1:01pm
what is the name of the big battery company you have?i,am looking for big Lithium batteries for my e-scooters...i dont have the time and the big machine for this big batteries :|
i never said i have a big company, just one that is around for some time and have steady customers from private people and companies and has dealt with many issues already.

and if you want a battery made to order you can contact me with a message. i think we speak the same language so no worries there. :wink:
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by icherouveim » Jul 04 2019 12:18am

Hello,

I was in Israel for four days. Three in Jerusalem and one in Tel Aviv.
The reason I am writing here is because I was impressed of how many e bikes and electric scooters you have!!
I haven't seen so many electric vehicles in my life before.
The most of them are low power ebikes from 250 up to 750 watts. People in Israel like them and use them like crazy!!
Many times We saw two adult guys without a helmet on a single stand up scooter to drive next to the cars on a big huge high way road, very dangerous!! My wife couldn't believe it and a taxi driver told us that nobody can stop this madness.
I am very curious why government don't give instructions, Israel is a country with very restrictive rules.
By the way I haven't seen any high power ebikes. Are they very illegal to go at the public streets with them ?
Maybe that's why..

I attach a photo with a common 20 inch wheel ebike from Jerusalem.
After what I saw I think it's a good business to have an ebike company in Israel.
20190616_151308.jpg
20190616_151308.jpg (244.93 KiB) Viewed 968 times

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jonescg   1.21 GW

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by jonescg » Jul 04 2019 12:50am

I think your packs look pretty good. Well done!

I think with pack building it comes down to finding a niche and doing your best. In my case it's high power LiPo packs for motorbikes, go-karts and performance EVs. For e-bikes, I'm way too expensive.

Custom is key - we specialise in stuff that China doesn't make.

Keep at it :)

Chris

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by electraflyit » Jul 11 2019 5:54am

Flippy
What would you change on his battery Build?
I'm about to do a EBIKE battery build and would like your input
Just a medium power 16s 8p lion
Thanks Eddie

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Re: My battery building business...need your help

Post by flippy » Jul 12 2019 8:20am

electraflyit wrote:
Jul 11 2019 5:54am
Flippy
What would you change on his battery Build?
I'm about to do a EBIKE battery build and would like your input
Just a medium power 16s 8p lion
Thanks Eddie
my full manual is very long and i aint gonna type all that.

start by using cell holders, the 4x5 type, if you have exess you can cut it off with wire side cutters or a sharp knife.
if you want to make it with 2 layers then make it flat on the desk and fold it after you welded the "inside" layer and but lexan/plexiglass between the 2 halves when folding.
nickel strip should be 8mm wide proper nickel (see the welding topic for links) and .15 for the series strips. weld those first and then do a single in parralel and have exess on 1 side where you solder on the balance wire.
first do all the short series connections before doing the parralel ones.
use about 3 welds per contact.
Lithium beats liquid dinosaurs.

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