How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

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Ahmed-aomk2000   100 µW

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How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by Ahmed-aomk2000 » May 02 2017 3:43am

Hello everyone :D,
I have a 60v battery pack and I wanted to use it on a 48v motor without burning the motor. What options do i have? How can i step it down? will it burn the motor in the first place?
The motor I was looking at is this one https://www.ebay.com/p/48v-Rear-Wheel-E ... 1680585473
Many thanks and much appreciated

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wesnewell   100 GW

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by wesnewell » May 02 2017 9:24am

The motor doesn't matter. It all depends on the controllers max voltage limit. Most with an lcd display are limited to 60V max by the display and 63V max by the controller. You need to know the max voltage charge of your 60V pack to determine if it will work with your setup. What's the specs on the pack? At worst, you will need a new controller, but if max charge is 60V, then it will work fine without a problem.
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fechter   100 GW

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by fechter » May 02 2017 10:51am

+1
It's the controller you need to worry about more than the motor. If the controller and battery are too big, yes there would be some chance of cooking the motor. The controller needs to handle the peak pack voltage and needs to have a current limit in the right range for the motor. Many are programmable.
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Sunder   100 MW

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by Sunder » May 02 2017 7:43pm

I'd like to add to this. While what they say above is true, cooking the motor still is a serious concern, because motors are usually most efficient just below their no-load speed. By increasing the voltage, you are increasing the no load speed.

So if the motor was wound to drive you at, (for ease of calculation), 48km/h @ 48v, then at 60v, the no load speed would be 60km/h. To most people, this would sound good so far.

But let's say your normal loaded speed is 40km/h, or 83% of your no load speed. This would be near the most efficient band of your motor, and you would be wasting about 10-15% of your energy as heat.

If you still cruised at 40km/h on a 60v battery, you could be at 66% of your no load speed. This is near the efficiency cliff, so you'd probably be burning up ~20-25% of your energy has heat. Below about 50% of no load speed, efficiency drops like a rock. This will raise the temperature of your motor. This means when you go up a hill and slow down even more, you have less buffer to sink the heat into (not to mention the decrease in efficiency is even higher at those loads).

Best bet is always to design properly. If you can't afford that, you'll want to do a lot of testing and monitoring when it's not critical (I.e. on weekends, not on your way to work). Push it 20-30% harder than you think you otherwise would in a daily situation. Carry extra weights, go up steeper hills, wait for a warmer day, etc.
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Ahmed-aomk2000   100 µW

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by Ahmed-aomk2000 » May 03 2017 11:04pm

Thanks for the replies appreciated it heaps :D :D :D

tanstaafl   10 W

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by tanstaafl » May 04 2017 12:01am

I will start by admitting my ignorance, but this doesn't sound right. Doesn't a controller use PWM (through some decent sized capacitors) to vary the effective voltage sent to the motor? Unless you're actually going faster, seems there should be no effect of a higher voltage battery pack past the controller? Of course, you have to have a controller that can handle the input voltage.
Sunder wrote:I'd like to add to this. While what they say above is true, cooking the motor still is a serious concern, because motors are usually most efficient just below their no-load speed. By increasing the voltage, you are increasing the no load speed.

So if the motor was wound to drive you at, (for ease of calculation), 48km/h @ 48v, then at 60v, the no load speed would be 60km/h. To most people, this would sound good so far.

But let's say your normal loaded speed is 40km/h, or 83% of your no load speed. This would be near the most efficient band of your motor, and you would be wasting about 10-15% of your energy as heat.

If you still cruised at 40km/h on a 60v battery, you could be at 66% of your no load speed. This is near the efficiency cliff, so you'd probably be burning up ~20-25% of your energy has heat. Below about 50% of no load speed, efficiency drops like a rock. This will raise the temperature of your motor. This means when you go up a hill and slow down even more, you have less buffer to sink the heat into (not to mention the decrease in efficiency is even higher at those loads).

Best bet is always to design properly. If you can't afford that, you'll want to do a lot of testing and monitoring when it's not critical (I.e. on weekends, not on your way to work). Push it 20-30% harder than you think you otherwise would in a daily situation. Carry extra weights, go up steeper hills, wait for a warmer day, etc.

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Sunder   100 MW

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by Sunder » May 04 2017 1:27am

When PWM is on 100% duty cycle, the effective voltage is the battery voltage.

If your cruising speed is limited by the power delivered to the wheel, and not by the no load speed or the throttle, then what I described is correct. Gowever you are right, if the cruising speed was arbitrarily self imposed by the throttle, then it won't be all that inefficient.
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tiny_n_terrible   100 W

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by tiny_n_terrible » May 05 2017 11:35pm

I changed the 63 volt caps in the controller to 100 volt caps.
I found out that I can only charge the 14 s nissan leaf cells to 15.20 volt . Any higher the overvolt protection in the 48 volt Yescoma controller shuts Down.
I felt so stupid when that happened the first time. I Full charged batteries and no Electric bicycle gooodness!!!

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by dogman dan » May 06 2017 7:00am

My experience is those type motors can handle a lot more than 1000w, 48v 20 amps controller. But about 3000w is the practical upper limit. At that point, you can and will melt the halls at least, if not the whole motor. But the motor can still stand it for a limited time. like about 30 min, or ten miles at full speed. Less time in the hottest summer weather of course, I used to run 1500w all summer, then switch to 3000w when it started to freeze at night. In the spring,, I tended to run 3000w till I melted a motor, then swap in a spare and turn it down. :lol:

If you end up going that far, vent the side covers. Lots of debate about how effective this is, but for sure, once you stop, a sealed motor will spike even hotter, while a vented one will cool off fairly quick.

Also, you can know when to stop on the vented motor, by the smell, if you pause long enough to take a whiff. Hot varnish smells semi sweet, while like toast, you can smell it when it gets to burning. Totally different aroma.

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by 999zip999 » May 06 2017 2:48pm

What battery ? It must match the controller demands.

AfdhalAtiffTan   10 mW

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by AfdhalAtiffTan » May 07 2017 7:16pm

dogman dan wrote:My experience is those type motors can handle a lot more than 1000w, 48v 20 amps controller. But about 3000w is the practical upper limit. At that point, you can and will melt the halls at least, if not the whole motor. But the motor can still stand it for a limited time. like about 30 min, or ten miles at full speed. Less time in the hottest summer weather of course, I used to run 1500w all summer, then switch to 3000w when it started to freeze at night. In the spring,, I tended to run 3000w till I melted a motor, then swap in a spare and turn it down. :lol:

If you end up going that far, vent the side covers. Lots of debate about how effective this is, but for sure, once you stop, a sealed motor will spike even hotter, while a vented one will cool off fairly quick.

Also, you can know when to stop on the vented motor, by the smell, if you pause long enough to take a whiff. Hot varnish smells semi sweet, while like toast, you can smell it when it gets to burning. Totally different aroma.

Wow, what controller did you used? I own a 1000W 48V hub motor kit too, but the included controller uses 70V mosfets.

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dogman dan   100 GW

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by dogman dan » May 08 2017 6:11am

At that time, I was running a 72v 40 amps controller, for 3000w. So I ran 72v year round.

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by AfdhalAtiffTan » May 08 2017 3:42pm

dogman dan wrote:At that time, I was running a 72v 40 amps controller, for 3000w. So I ran 72v year round.
Thank you for your reply :)

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by 999zip999 » May 08 2017 6:53pm

We need to know the battery. ? Everthing.

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by 999zip999 » May 09 2017 1:09pm

Here is a cheap controller and thead.https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewt ... =2&t=71128. I haven't use these controller but is cheap. If your battery can support it ?

cycleops612   10 kW

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by cycleops612 » May 09 2017 8:17pm

Sunder wrote:I'd like to add to this. While what they say above is true, cooking the motor still is a serious concern, because motors are usually most efficient just below their no-load speed. By increasing the voltage, you are increasing the no load speed.

So if the motor was wound to drive you at, (for ease of calculation), 48km/h @ 48v, then at 60v, the no load speed would be 60km/h. To most people, this would sound good so far.

But let's say your normal loaded speed is 40km/h, or 83% of your no load speed. This would be near the most efficient band of your motor, and you would be wasting about 10-15% of your energy as heat.

If you still cruised at 40km/h on a 60v battery, you could be at 66% of your no load speed. This is near the efficiency cliff, so you'd probably be burning up ~20-25% of your energy has heat. Below about 50% of no load speed, efficiency drops like a rock. This will raise the temperature of your motor. This means when you go up a hill and slow down even more, you have less buffer to sink the heat into (not to mention the decrease in efficiency is even higher at those loads).

Best bet is always to design properly. If you can't afford that, you'll want to do a lot of testing and monitoring when it's not critical (I.e. on weekends, not on your way to work). Push it 20-30% harder than you think you otherwise would in a daily situation. Carry extra weights, go up steeper hills, wait for a warmer day, etc.
You put powerful arguments for a mid-drive.

Why not a vehicle that fits my needs, whatever they may be, now and in the future, even if i move to denver? Its what most would expect of a car e.g.

The reality is, the other flipsides of poor efficiency, are also, bigger heavier dearer batteries for an equal result.

In this case, the OP can gear for optimum rpm, whatever the voltage.

Ahmed-aomk2000   100 µW

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by Ahmed-aomk2000 » May 15 2017 11:05pm

Hi, So i bought a whole heap of cordless tool batteries from my local store. They are 20 volts each with 2.ah

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The Battery Doctor   10 mW

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by The Battery Doctor » Aug 06 2017 1:47am

Install a new red discharge wire on the 13th positive cell and disconnect, remove or leave the remaining cells. Now you have 48V =)

The charging is trickier, you would have to charge them separately, maby even exchange the BMS in the long run.

If you want to use all the remaining cells a "dc to dc converter 60V to 48V" would do just that. However they are hard to get for that voltage and high amps.
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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by zackclark70 » Aug 06 2017 8:52am

if your controller can take 60v it will be fine just keep an eye on motor temps and avoid WOT if you find it gets hot

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Re: How to use a 60v battery pack on 48v motor

Post by 999zip999 » Aug 06 2017 12:49pm

It's. Best to have one big battery. A bunch of tool packs spaghetti string together ? A battery need to be balance all cells same voltage and capacity.

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