Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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TheBeastie   1 MW

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by TheBeastie » Jun 02 2019 11:32am

Thought I would post this here to help drill through Elon's incredible persuasion power and just how much more energy to weight ratio there is on hydrogen fuel cells, like I say in my signature, fuel-cell is the ultimate battery.
Here is announcement launch for a 4hour flight time, safe electric vertical takeoff and landing (eVTOL) vehicle, or "electric flying car" if you prefer.
https://fuelcellsworks.com/news/alakai- ... ty-system/

Image

https://www.zdnet.com/article/hydrogen- ... -its-real/
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1T0078
https://www.thestreet.com/video/worlds- ... o-14977875
http://skai.co/

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/techands ... 2C#image=8
Image
Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhMP5237dGA


Those incredibly persuasive "tech people" on YouTube/MSM/etc that told you "Hydrogen will never work" really are just dumb c_ncer, who don't know anything, probably have money in something else, and really probably shouldn't be telling you anything, click bait will never go away, you just gotta be smarter.

I will only post on it once.. if they can easily do it for drones/quadcopters, they can do it on a larger scale, it's just about the longer timeline.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHlrLU7kTys
Last edited by TheBeastie on Jun 10 2019 8:50am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by liveforphysics » Jun 02 2019 1:08pm

Actually, that is a scam vehicle.

No configuration of 6 props passes the bird strike test requirements to fly human passengers.

Thats a movie prop made to lure VC cash.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by bearing » Jun 02 2019 3:13pm

liveforphysics wrote:
May 31 2019 6:35pm

I've been doing EVs of all voltages now for the over a decade of experience, and I would make my personal no-budget ultimate EV dragster or hypercar 20-21s (77-73Vdc pack nominal). It's somewhere between a cost savings and cost penalty depending on the application, but if you're targeting ultimate performance and safety and durability as key metrics, it turns out amazing.
A performance car is approaching or exceeding 1000 amps on 400V. So having 1/4 or 1/8 the voltage would complicate things. But sure, if it's a light vehicle it can get some performance even on a lower voltage. But then I'm thinking less than 500kg.

My electric car (1200kg) has a 120V (32s) pack, and pulls 350A. Gets me to work, but I wouldn't dream about trying to get any performance out of it. The steady state currents are equal to a decent acceleration on a modern car with 3x the voltage.

I agree that IGBT's are pretty bad transistors. But for high voltages there are also silicon carbide mosfets. They are used on some modern electric cars. Like some of the Korean models.

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MitchJi   1 GW

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by MitchJi » Jun 25 2019 5:39pm

https://globenewswire.com/news-release/ ... rodes.html

Mich., June 24, 2019 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- A123 Systems LLC, a developer and manufacturer of advanced lithium-ion batteries and systems, and Ionic Materials, an advanced materials company, today announced their milestone advancements in solid state battery development.

Working together through their joint development agreement, A123 and Ionic Materials have developed an innovative and industry first approach to an All Solid State Battery (ASSB) that will accelerate the commercialization of the technology. By combining Ionic Materials' advanced ionically conductive polymer with A123's next-generation NMC/graphite lithium-ion chemistry, the companies have created a battery with high energy density that is exceptionally safe and uses no flammable liquid electrolyte. By not using more exotic electrodes such as lithium metal, an ASSB with a solid polymer electrolyte can be introduced to the market much faster.

The innovation enables the manufacture of a full scale ASSB using today’s high volume lithium-ion manufacturing equipment. The result is a cost effective way to make electric vehicles safer, lighter, and less complex. Applications in the energy storage markets can also benefit from this technology which could reduce or eliminate the need for cooling and the need for fire suppression. This unique approach is expected to enable the high volume launch of solid-state technology into the market as soon as 2022.

This development demonstrates A123’s continued commitment to innovation. “The efforts of A123 Systems and Ionic Materials have been a creative and successful collaboration that has resulted in a state-of-the-art product we are proud to bring to market before anyone else in the industry,” said Jim Paye, acting CTO of A123 Systems. Mike Zimmerman, CEO of Ionic Materials agreed, “The synergy between our two companies produced a level of cooperation that is required to succeed in the ever advancing battery space. We look forward to our continued success in commercializing this technology.”

Mike Zimmerman from Ionic Materials and Brian Sisk from A123 will be presenting results of this development at the Advanced Automotive Battery Conference (AABC) on Tuesday, June 25 in San Diego, CA.

These would be much cheaper to manufacture if they used maxwell DBE.

Anyone know the cell specs for these cells.
Best Wishes!

Mitch


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zzoing   10 kW

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by zzoing » Jun 26 2019 2:22am

Cool concept! Perhaps they have flown it for a minute, that would be cool too. BMW has signed something with them, although i am skeptical. It has to fly and land precisely with 5 motors, and have same energy as 5 roadsters to fly for just 2 hours, 420kwh, so every fuel cell is at least a 75kwh fuel cell. The rotors are small so they go fast and are very loud and inefficient, so 8-10 rotors is cooler.
Hydrogen stations for every street corner, w00t! Cost wise H will never be cheaper, it can do air ambulances of the future, thats pretty cool!

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zzoing   10 kW

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by zzoing » Jun 26 2019 2:29am

Cool concept! Perhaps they have flown it for a minute, that would be cool too. BMW has signed something with them, although i am skeptical. It has to fly and land precisely with 5 motors, and have same energy as 5 roadsters to fly for just 2 hours, 420kwh, so every fuel cell is at least a 75kwh fuel cell. The rotors are small so they go fast and are very loud and inefficient, so 8-10 rotors is cooler.
Hydrogen stations for every street corner, w00t! Cost wise H will never be cheaper, it can do air ambulances of the future, thats pretty cool!

Theres another SS battery here too that is alledgedly ready for market: http://koreabizwire.com/technology-for- ... ped/139092
I'll get busy with my project then, because if we switch back to prismatic it will be a hassle:)

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Mikegy » Jul 04 2019 11:12pm

Using this algorithm, it would be very interesting to see what low cost, energy dense batteries could be developed.
Tech Xplore: With little training, machine-learning algorithms can uncover hidden scientific knowledge.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by neptronix » Jul 08 2019 1:21pm

https://insideevs.com/news/358327/china ... ium-costs/

Chinese company claims they found a way to massively reduce the cost of lithium production.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by e-beach » Jul 08 2019 7:39pm

neptronix wrote:
Jul 08 2019 1:21pm
https://insideevs.com/news/358327/china ... ium-costs/
Chinese company claims they found a way to massively reduce the cost of lithium production.
But do they pass on the savings to the costumer?
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fechter   100 GW

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by fechter » Jul 09 2019 7:47am

The cost of the raw lithium is only a fraction of the cost of making a battery, so don't expect a big price drop. That article had a comment below:
As I recall, the original Tesla Roadster's 55 kWh battery pack contained only 9 pounds of lithium. At that ratio, and at the maximum price of $20,000 per metric ton quoted in the article, a 100 kWh battery pack would have $907 worth of lithium. At $12,000 per metric ton, that comes to $544.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Jul 12 2019 7:35pm

According to this..
https://electrek.co/2016/11/01/breakdow ... ottleneck/
There is 63kg of Lithium in a Mod S pack
But also the article about lithium price reduction was suggesting a cost reduction from $20k-/T to $2180/T..
So, costs could reduce by as much as $1100 per pack ! :roll:
...not exactly a major step in cost reduction !
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by zzoing » Jul 31 2019 1:52pm

It's faster to dig lithium reserves than build battery factories so the price of raw lithium has dropped recently because mining activity is high.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by jumpjack » Sep 10 2019 9:03am

New, longlife NCM battery (NCM532/AG) , thanks to new type of electrolyte and "artificial graphite (AG)": up to 5000 cycles at 1C and DoD100%, 1 year storage time without self-discharge:
http://jes.ecsdl.org/content/166/13/A3031.full

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Honk » Sep 10 2019 9:49am

That seems like the same story repeated over and over.
Golden super batteries that actually never reaches the market, nor the regular shelf for easy access.
If this was really to suceed we will never be able to buy anyway as they will become reserverd for high end customers and regular Joes doesn't count as that.
I'm sticking by "easy of the shelf" and thrustworthy 29E's.
Efficiency is king!

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by spinningmagnets » Sep 10 2019 11:23am

I am always skeptical based on my several years of experience reading battery PR releases. However, this is from Jeff Dahn. Plus, they are fully funded and are not looking for investors.

Also, instead of claiming the secret sauce must remain secret, they are publishing all the details so it can be replicated by an independent third party.

They have been patenting lots of their research results to ensure new developments wont be locked away (*see: Texaco cobasys, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_en ... _batteries ), and the patents have an open license so anyone can use them for free...

https://www.electricbike.com/batteries- ... nmc532-ag/

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » Sep 10 2019 2:34pm

luv that wild 'k' typo in the title.
https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/0 ... -tera.html
full release in 2022.
mark your calender.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Sep 11 2019 4:19am

jumpjack wrote:
Sep 10 2019 9:03am
, 1 year storage time without self-discharge:.....
I am struggling to think of a situation where that might be a useful feature ? :roll:
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by crazymanc » Sep 13 2019 7:40pm

Storage for emergency backup possibly. Nevertheless batteries that don't self discharge is a step in the right direction towards eliminating/reducing their downsides.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Punx0r » Sep 14 2019 8:15am

spinningmagnets wrote:
Sep 10 2019 11:23am
I am always skeptical based on my several years of experience reading battery PR releases. However, this is from Jeff Dahn. Plus, they are fully funded and are not looking for investors.

Also, instead of claiming the secret sauce must remain secret, they are publishing all the details so it can be replicated by an independent third party.

They have been patenting lots of their research results to ensure new developments wont be locked away (*see: Texaco cobasys), and the patents have an open license so anyone can use them for free...
This sort of thing restores my faith in humanity :)

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Sep 14 2019 6:00pm

crazymanc wrote:
Sep 13 2019 7:40pm
.....batteries that don't self discharge is a step in the right direction towards eliminating/reducing their downsides.
Battery performance always seems to be a compromise of useful properties.
I would happily trade double the self discharge rate for a doubling in the Energy density or double the cycle life, ..
.......or half the cost ! :P
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » Sep 17 2019 11:40am

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 14 2019 6:00pm
I would happily trade double the self discharge rate for a doubling in the Energy density or double the cycle life, ..
.......or half the cost ! :P
and here i thought in your previous post you were being sarcastic.
wud you trade your gas tank for one twice the size but with a pinhole in the bottom?

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Sep 17 2019 8:54pm

Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh wrote:
Sep 17 2019 11:40am
Hillhater wrote:
Sep 14 2019 6:00pm
I would happily trade double the self discharge rate for a doubling in the Energy density or double the cycle life, ..
.......or half the cost ! :P
and here i thought in your previous post you were being sarcastic.
wud you trade your gas tank for one twice the size but with a pinhole in the bottom?
No !, because..
1). I do not need a bigger tank. A small tank will get me 1000 km, and i need a break before that,.
.........And a 5 min stop will let me refil if i want to
2). A leaking gas tank is dangerous...a slow discharge battery is not.
3). I do not have a “gas” tank......i use Diesel ! :o :lol:

( actually gas does “ self discharge” over time. Evaporation in an unsealed container will obviously do the worst, but even in a sealed container, some of the critical highly volatile components degrade over time...
...but who keeps a tankful of gas for a year ?)


I bet Tesla wish they had a cell with 500+ wh/kg...even if it self discharged in 6 months !
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh » Sep 18 2019 5:24pm

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 17 2019 8:54pm
1). I do not need a bigger tank. A small tank will get me 1000 km
on your lawnmower?
(see, your dumb+dumber routine worx both ways.... that is a put on, isn't it?)
Hillhater wrote:3). I do not have a “gas” tank......i use Diesel ! :o :lol:
yeah, but we don't know that, do we?
really? you think it makes a gnatzazz difference what you call the tank, or what you put in it???
fuel tank; feel better? :roll:
Hillhater wrote: ( actually gas does “ self discharge” over time. Evaporation in an unsealed container will obviously do the worst, but even in a sealed container, some of the critical highly volatile components degrade over time...
...but who keeps a tankful of gas for a year ?)
like alcohol?
how about a 25 year old bottle of scotch?
no, wait...
we already know your response.
Hillhater wrote:i drink tea ! :lol:
damn, ya got me.
your brielle-iant rebuttal totally blows
my argument outta the water.


it's... an... analogy.
an illustration, not absolute proof.
but then you damn well knew that else you wouldn't have taken the time meticulously picking gnitz.
none of your points(?) have any bearing.
the analogy holds water.

Hillhater wrote:I bet Tesla wish they had a cell with 500+ wh/kg...even if it self discharged in 6 months !
i will give you that battery makers tend to agree with you & give self discharge bottom to no priority.
as i've previously pointed out in another thread, Tesla does what's in Tesla's best interest which does not always coincide with our own.
you wouldn't put up with a leaky bottle of Jack & we shouldn't have to take it from a battery just because it has always been this way.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Sep 18 2019 7:26pm

Many modern ( not so compact ) cars can return 5-6 litrs/100km. And have 60ltr tanks.
Diesels are often better.
But back to my original comment ....
....what use is “1yr before any self discharge”. In an EV or home storage, situation ?
( and yes, i prefer tea/coffee to booze !...except cold beer on a hot day )
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Punx0r » Sep 19 2019 2:48am

No one is saying they sacrificed half the energy density or half the calender life in order to not self-discharge in 1 year - that is a strawman argument. Those are not mutually exclusive features like energy density and power density are.

If a good cell also has a low self-discharge then that's a good thing as it will be useful in some applications and does no harm in the others.

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