Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Batteries, Chargers, and Battery Management Systems.
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TheBeastie   1 MW

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by TheBeastie » Sep 15 2018 3:12am

neptronix wrote:
Sep 13 2018 9:46pm
Solid state batteries by 2019? wow.

https://electrek.co/2018/09/11/solid-st ... -vehicles/
In a press release, the company listed a bunch of advantages that they claim their technology has over current batteries:

2 – 3X higher energy vs. current lithium-ion
Substantially improved safety due to the elimination of the volatile, flammable, and corrosive liquid electrolyte as used in lithium-ion
Low-cost battery-pack designs through:
Minimization of safety features
Elimination of pack cooling
Greatly simplified cell, module, and pack designs through the elimination of the need for liquid containment
High manufacturability due to compatibility with automated, industry-standard, roll-to-roll production
Solid Power said that it plans to use the funds from its Series A investment to “scale-up production via a multi-MWh roll-to-roll facility, which will be fully constructed and installed by the end of 2018 and fully operational in 2019.”
QZ released an article on the subject the same day as electrek.co but its a lot larger article and more detailed on the technology..
It seems there are a lot of new lithium battery companies working on various types of solid-state batteries..
https://qz.com/1383884/a-startup-promis ... 0-million/
Other startups, such as Sion Power, PolyPlus, Solid Energy Systems, and Ion Storage Systems, told Quartz then that they are in the validation phase

All these companies have "Solid State Battery" as the keywords on their website for battery tech description.
https://ionstoragesystems.com/
http://polyplus.com/
https://sionpower.com/
http://www.solidenergysystems.com/technology/

With electrek.co it seems to be their bread and butter comes from being exuberantly hyperbolic.
The QZ article mentions more disappointing aspects of the solid-state battery technology.
But all solid-state batteries have remained technologically unviable. That’s because effectively transporting charges from one electrode to another is inherently harder in solids than in liquids. Even if chemists are able to come up with better conducting solid materials, those materials or their inclusion in batteries becomes prohibitively expensive for a mass-produced product.


This is where Solid Power sounds a lot like Sion Power and their solid-state competitors, where its around 200 cycles and really doesn't like cold temperatures, but still have the amazing claim of 2-3 times the energy.

The startup’s hand-built pouch battery cells—which is the industry standard for testing—can be reliably used for 200 charge-discharge lifecycles, which one expert said is an impressive achievement for this kind of battery at the current stage of development. At 300 watt-hours per kg (Wh/kg) it beats the energy density of current lithium-ion batteries, which come in at less than 250 Wh/kg. But the battery only functions properly at temperatures above room temperature and up to 150°C (300°F).


I posted about Sion Power in the previous page viewtopic.php?f=14&t=57256&start=1475#p1375933
This post was about if there is anything truly new in lithium batteries on this now nearly 11year old thread on batteries, the answer is not really, except the Sion Power/Solid-battery technology and it seems pretty ordinary if you ask me, but perfect to justify extra investment money.

Wikipedia has a pretty nasty but I am assuming honest area on this particular solid-state battery technology in its Disadvantages section
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid-sta ... advantages

Disadvantages
Solid-state batteries are traditionally expensive to make[34] and current manufacturing processes are noted to be immune to economies of scale.[7] It was estimated in 2012 that, based on then-current technology, a 20Ah solid-state battery cell would cost US$100,000, and a high-range electric car would require 800 to 1,000 of such cells.[7] Cost is noted to be a factor that has impeded the adoption of solid-state batteries in certain areas, such as smartphones.[17]

In addition, low temperature operations may be challenging[34] and solid-state batteries were once noted for having very poor performance, making their use in rechargeable batteries impractical.[8]

Meanwhile, solid-state batteries with ceramic electrolytes require high pressure to maintain contact with the electrodes.[35] Solid-state batteries with ceramic separators may break from mechanical stress due to their rigid nature.[7]


It makes sense when you weigh up the disadvantages that only BMW etc are throwing a mere $20million dollars at it, and not billions, the tiny amount of money willing to be invested in this tech says that the car companies are willing to throw some mere 'take a shot at it' but its not really that excited or they would be swallowing it up whole.
This is technically good news for Tesla stockholders, because if Solid Power were able to make a 21700 cell with 2-3 x times more power than Tesla can produce, and BMW/Toyota owned the new battery technology then it would be bad news for Tesla. But this doesn't appear to be the situation.
It's great we got a "date" on production, thats the best thing we can ever hope to see.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by LockH » Sep 15 2018 4:39am

neptronix wrote:
Sep 13 2018 9:46pm

...................(capacity)
2 – 3X higher energy ^ vs. current lithium-ion
.........................^

(versus 3x energy per second... ie DENSITY of energy/unit of volume versus 3x RATE aka "power"/unit of ... :lol: ... Just seems at a glance to be an incomplete description ... eeerrrrr... somehow?

"2 – 3X higher energy"

:?:
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by LockH » Sep 15 2018 10:51am

New Concept Battery Enables a Car to Run 700 km with 1kg of Aluminum:
http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/art ... dxno=25062

Image

Includes:
The new battery is not a rechargeable secondary battery, but a one-time-use primary battery. When applied to an electric car, electricity can be supplied by just replacing aluminum metal. According to the researchers, aluminum has superior energy density compared to the same weight of gasoline.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Sep 16 2018 5:59pm

TheBeastie wrote:
Sep 15 2018 3:12am
.......
It seems there are a lot of new lithium battery companies working on various types of solid-state batteries..
https://qz.com/1383884/a-startup-promis ... 0-million/
Other startups, such as Sion Power, PolyPlus, Solid Energy Systems, and Ion Storage Systems, told Quartz then that they are in the validation phase

All these companies have "Solid State Battery" as the keywords on their website for battery tech description.
https://ionstoragesystems.com/
http://polyplus.com/
https://sionpower.com/
http://www.solidenergysystems.com/technology/
Here is another , local Aussie company, who have also been spruking the imminent arrival od SS lithium cells manufactured in Darwin.
Energy Renaissance..Renaissance One..
https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/N ... ry-factory
?..Having reached an agreement with the Northern Territory Government, the plant is now due to become operational in late 2018, and will reportedly feature seven production lines. The manufactured semi-solid state lithium-ion batteries will be uniquely optimised for warm climates.
.....I dont think they have even found a suitable site yet !
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Philaphlous » Sep 18 2018 11:02am

The entrepreneur and engineer in me wants to create a startup battery Co to discover new battery technology...however..seeing the amount of money thrown into battery technology with little to no results right now is quite depressing...

It seems like there's never a good solution for all our current problems: 1) fast charging 2) high energy density 3) high current draw 4) 2000+ cycle life with little damage 5) safe batteries

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems battery chemistry hasn't changed much for lithium cells over the past 5ish years except for maybe less cobalt used according to Tesla which yields just cheaper costs...
It feels like a slow progress but maybe we'll hit the 300wh/kg maybe 5-10 years from now?

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Arlo1 » Sep 18 2018 6:42pm

Most companies are achieving a 7-10% improvement in energy density per year. That's not bad. It's hard to improve 1 or 2 of the important aspects of a battery without reducing the others.
We are getting there and big step changes will come. But what Tesla and Zero use works so even small improvements on there cells are exciting
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Philaphlous » Sep 18 2018 8:18pm

My next question is do you really think cylindrical batteries are the way to go for future automobiles? I mean just think of all the excess metal that doesn't make up the functioning part of the battery an how much weight alone they would save.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Sep 18 2018 10:08pm

Arlo1 wrote:
Sep 18 2018 6:42pm
Most companies are achieving a 7-10% improvement in energy density per year. ....
Which ones are you refering to ?
We have had 250-260 Wh/kg cells since 2010/11 ..(panasonic "B" etc) ..but we do not seem to have anything commercial beyond that since .
3600mAh in the 18650 format (4800mAh in 21700) , seems to be the limit of cell capacity and has been for several years. Even at that level they are compromising other performance characteristics such as power density and cycle life.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Philaphlous » Sep 19 2018 6:39am

It would seem that even the very best cells..our ncr18605b and GA and slightly newer m36 and 35q? Cells are right around the 3200mah mark even though they're pretty much rated at 3400mah...

I think for cylindrical cells to be effective against gasoline we need to solve a few items... 1) faster charging. Somehow be able to full charge a battery from 0-100% in say 30-45 minutes. 2) increase the density to around 500wh/kg. That's what's really going to be needed to really have the electric car industry take over gasoline... Think if we could even half charge cars in say 10-15 minutes and have a total "full" range of 500mi on a single charge, that'd be the tipping point where I think all car companies would switch to electric...

I.. Beginning to wonder if there's a market to get into with the charging industry. With Tesla supercharger coming at a cost now for model 3 owners it would seem like there might be the potential for a profit seeking position to produce charging stations.. Not only Tesla but hybrids and other auto manufacturers that in the next 5-10 years will have a significant investment in electric vehicles. There may need to be a new and upcoming infrastructure required to support this and it might not be the best solution for every automaker to have their own charging station that isn't able to adapt to all cars...

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by LockH » Sep 19 2018 10:00am

Automat:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automat

Starts:
An automat is a fast food restaurant where simple foods and drink are served by vending machines. The world's first automat was named Quisisana, which opened in Berlin, Germany in 1895.
Image

... so my money is on two minute battery swaps... if Yamaha and Gogoro can get their acts together...:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=96314
The Ministry of Economic Affairs’ Industrial Development Bureau is planning to use Gogoro Inc’s battery specification as a universal standard for electric scooters with swappable batteries. However, the plan has sparked a dispute with rival manufacturers. Gogoro CEO Horace Luke last week announced the company would open up its battery control units for purchase by other electric scooter makers and would also waive all licensing fees. Luke says he hopes the move would allow other electric scooter manufacturers to form a “Team Taiwan” that can take on the global market. Gogoro started selling its electric scooters two and a half years ago and in doing so opened up the domestic market for electric scooters with swappable batteries. There are currently 500 battery-swapping stations nationwide which have handled 9 million battery swaps to date. On average, customers carry out 30,000 battery swaps every day.
:wink:
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Arlo1 » Sep 19 2018 10:05am

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 18 2018 10:08pm
Arlo1 wrote:
Sep 18 2018 6:42pm
Most companies are achieving a 7-10% improvement in energy density per year. ....
Which ones are you refering to ?
We have had 250-260 Wh/kg cells since 2010/11 ..(panasonic "B" etc) ..but we do not seem to have anything commercial beyond that since .
3600mAh in the 18650 format (4800mAh in 21700) , seems to be the limit of cell capacity and has been for several years. Even at that level they are compromising other performance characteristics such as power density and cycle life.
There is much more to this then what you see as the end user.
What you see is the result of companies trying to make money.
So there is 100s of reasons you don't see the improvements you want.
1 is money. Some of these companies will setup to produce HUGE numbers of these cells before any plans to change them
Another thing is they always spend something like 2-3 years running cycles and tests on cells before they get to market.
Another is sometimes they work on keeping the same energy density while improving other aspects.

But you can look at the improvements from Zero for the last 8-10 years. The packs in my bike are ~4 years old. And the Packs Zero sells now (2018) are 33% more energy dense.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Sep 19 2018 5:09pm

Arlo1 wrote:
Sep 19 2018 10:05am

There is much more to this then what you see as the end user.
What you see is the result of companies trying to make money.
So there is 100s of reasons you don't see the improvements you want. ...
Whatever the reason, the commercially available batteries we can buy now , have no more energy density than they had 7-8 years ago.
If there was a 7% year on year improvement, we should be able to buy genuine 6Ah 18650's..( or 8 Ah 21700's ! )
Arlo1 wrote:
Sep 19 2018 10:05am
.....
...But you can look at the improvements from Zero for the last 8-10 years. The packs in my bike are ~4 years old. And the Packs Zero sells now (2018) are 33% more energy dense.
Over the last 8-10 years, Zero have changed the cell type/manufacturer 3 times ! (Molicell, EIG, Farasis) ...so any "energy density" increase cannot just be attributed to improved chemistry,. They obviously realised there were better cells available after their initial selection.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by crazymanc » Sep 19 2018 11:41pm

I was under the impression, from things I've read, that current lithium ion technology, as found in our 18650s, has reached a level of stagnation.

That is we've kind of reached a theoretical maximum (energy density) for what the current chemistry can provide. This is why we haven't seen any significant improvement over the last few years in cell capacity.

Of course the cost to push these cells changes, so we do see somewhat improved battery sizes in mobile devices and commercial battery packs. Plus a reduction in price of some of the older cells NCR18650PFs for example.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Arlo1 » Sep 20 2018 10:17am

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 19 2018 5:09pm
Over the last 8-10 years, Zero have changed the cell type/manufacturer 3 times ! (Molicell, EIG, Farasis) ...so any "energy density" increase cannot just be attributed to improved chemistry,. They obviously realised there were better cells available after their initial selection.
The 2018 Farasis Packs have 33% more then the 2014 Farasis Packs in my bikes. They have been making yearly sometimes bi-yearly progress.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Arlo1 » Sep 20 2018 10:18am

crazymanc wrote:
Sep 19 2018 11:41pm

That is we've kind of reached a theoretical maximum (energy density) for what the current chemistry can provide. This is why we haven't seen any significant improvement over the last few years in cell capacity.
Key word is chemistry.

A small change in chemistry can be a huge change in energy density.

There is reasons they have not changed what you can buy off the shelf.
Does your project need a high performance motor drive, battery charger or other power electronics developed? Let's talk!
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Sep 20 2018 4:30pm

So what is the energy density of the current Farasis cell ?
That spec sheet seems hard to track down.
But the earlier 25 Ah Farasis cell was 185Whr/kg, ..410Wh/L
...https://evmc2.files.wordpress.com/2013/ ... 5ah-v5.pdf
So if they managed to keep the weight the same for the 32ah cell (???). it should now have ~~240Wh/kg , 525Wh/L, energy density.
Which is about the same energy density as was commercially available 8-10 years ago .!
This is just another cell manufacturer playing catch up to the existing best practice, not any new breakthrough in higher energy density development.
...There is reasons they have not changed what you can buy off the shelf...
....because they are not commercially viable ?
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Philaphlous » Sep 21 2018 12:28pm

Yea. We almost need a thread about real world progress of energy density and cell technology...

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Pajda » Sep 21 2018 12:31pm

Hillhater wrote:
Sep 20 2018 4:30pm
So what is the energy density of the current Farasis cell ?
That spec sheet seems hard to track down.
But the earlier 25 Ah Farasis cell was 185Whr/kg, ..410Wh/L
...https://evmc2.files.wordpress.com/2013/ ... 5ah-v5.pdf
So if they managed to keep the weight the same for the 32ah cell (???). it should now have ~~240Wh/kg , 525Wh/L, energy density.
Which is about the same energy density as was commercially available 8-10 years ago .!
Not for big (>10Ah) pouch cells. ~500Wh/l and ~240Wh/kg mass produced big pouch cells are available only about for last 3-4 years. In 2012, when the first 18650 cells with 700Wh/l and 240Wh/kg enter the mass production, there were available only about 300Wh/l and 150Wh/kg in the best big pouch cells and big prismatic cells.

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Sep 22 2018 9:46pm

Pajda wrote:
Sep 21 2018 12:31pm
Not for big (>10Ah) pouch cells. ~500Wh/l and ~240Wh/kg mass produced big pouch cells are available only about for last 3-4 years.
The discussion was about cell/chemistry energy density generally, not specifically any particular size or configuration.
The point being, as you stated, that 700Wh/L + chemistry has been around commercially for many years with no significant advancement.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Sep 28 2018 7:46am

Zinc air battery for $100/kWh ?...
...Or just BS ?
..News in Brief:
NantEnergy announces largest global deployment of a novel air breathing zinc rechargeable battery – 3,000 installations in nine countries – has broken the $100 per kilowatt hour barrier.
Microgrids of air breathing zinc rechargeable batteries with solar-powered storage are now providing sole source of power to more than 200,000 people in over 110 communities in Africa and Asia.
Air breathing zinc rechargeable batteries are now deployed at over 1,000 telecom sites in the United States, Mexico, Southeast Asia, Central and Latin America.
Sized to provide hours to days of load support to microgrids and telecom cell towers and designed to have a near 100% uptime requirement.
Eliminated the need for 1 million dangerous lead-acid batteries; offset over 4 million liters of diesel fuel; prevented the discharge of 10,000 metric tons of CO2 in 2017 alone and over 50,000 metric tons since 2012
Announcements were made by NantEnergy Chairman, Patrick Soon-Shiong, MD, during the One Planet Summit on climate change in New York on Sept. 26.....
https://nantenergy.com/nantenergy-annou ... t-barrier/
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by LockH » Sep 28 2018 4:15pm

Arlo1 wrote:
Sep 20 2018 10:18am
crazymanc wrote:
Sep 19 2018 11:41pm

That is we've kind of reached a theoretical maximum (energy density) for what the current chemistry can provide. This is why we haven't seen any significant improvement over the last few years in cell capacity.
Key word is chemistry.

A small change in chemistry can be a huge change in energy density.

There is reasons they have not changed what you can buy off the shelf.
Hehe... And I maintain the "key words" are battery swapping. :mrgreen:
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Sep 29 2018 1:13am

Philaphlous wrote:
Sep 21 2018 12:28pm
Yea. We almost need a thread about real world progress of energy density and cell technology...
https://www.designnews.com/electronics- ... 1533858372
....
Beginning in the 1990s, lithium ion batteries with graphite-based anodes provide an energy density of about 250 watt hours per kg (Wh/kg). Recent breakthroughs in Silicon-based anodes have move that up to around 350 Wh/kg, but realistically that appears to be a limit for lithium ion technologies. To go higher requires a change in technology. Now, right on that 30 year schedule, Dr. Hu and SolidEnergy says that the company is on track to have a lithium metal battery with nearly 500 Wh/kg available for production by 2021.
Can anyone name a commercial Li rechargeable cell, with 350Wh/kg ?
That would be a 4.5 Ah 18650 or equivalent.
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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by liveforphysics » Sep 29 2018 3:43am

The difference between them, is the cell with 245Wh/kg in 2011 delivers 1-2C discharge with lots of sag and only achieves it's 245Wh/kg at <~0.3C. The 32Ah Farasis cell achieves 12C peak 5C continous and doesn't take a meaningful energy density impact from being used at EV representative C rates.
Hillhater wrote:
Sep 20 2018 4:30pm
So what is the energy density of the current Farasis cell ?
That spec sheet seems hard to track down.
But the earlier 25 Ah Farasis cell was 185Whr/kg, ..410Wh/L
...https://evmc2.files.wordpress.com/2013/ ... 5ah-v5.pdf
So if they managed to keep the weight the same for the 32ah cell (???). it should now have ~~240Wh/kg , 525Wh/L, energy density.
Which is about the same energy density as was commercially available 8-10 years ago .!
This is just another cell manufacturer playing catch up to the existing best practice, not any new breakthrough in higher energy density development.
...There is reasons they have not changed what you can buy off the shelf...
....because they are not commercially viable ?
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LockH   100 GW

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by LockH » Sep 29 2018 7:30am

Hehe... In this thread, so far "Search found 0 matches: temp ambient"... as in ambient temperatures? Had a thought at one point to add a heater to the floor/sides of my battery compartment. To take a "small hit" of energy consumption in return for "more capable" batteries at "lower" ambient temperatures... might qualify as a "new battery breakthrough"? :) (Canadian here, where ambient temps are often less than 20C... and sometimes the rain comes down as "snow"...) :lol:
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Hillhater   100 GW

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Re: Thread for new battery breakthrough PR releases

Post by Hillhater » Sep 30 2018 7:20am

liveforphysics wrote:
Sep 29 2018 3:43am
The difference between them, is the cell with 245Wh/kg in 2011 delivers 1-2C discharge with lots of sag and only achieves it's 245Wh/kg at <~0.3C. The 32Ah Farasis cell achieves 12C peak 5C continous and doesn't take a meaningful energy density impact from being used at EV representative C rates.
Sure, cells have improved in many ways since 2011, but that 240-260 Wh/kg max energy density, has not significantly changed.
Have you seen any commercial cells with ED near that 350 WH/kg figure mentioned above ?
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