A123 20AH cells source?

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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by 999zip999 » Mar 05 2012 1:06pm

I believe that a123 layed off a bunch of people and fisker or volt or somebody changed there mine on a123's. Is this right ? So this is a glut on the market and low demand even at bmsbattery on battery chargers price dropped, and what's next. How big is the glut and where will the price drop ? Spreckalaters. Like that word ? It's working now on the oil market today. And natural gas tomorrow. So what's the price ?

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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by SlyCayer » Mar 05 2012 1:20pm

999zip999 wrote:I believe that a123 layed off a bunch of people and fisker or volt or somebody changed there mine on a123's. Is this right ? So this is a glut on the market and low demand even at bmsbattery on battery chargers price dropped, and what's next. How big is the glut and where will the price drop ? Spreckalaters. Like that word ? It's working now on the oil market today. And natural gas tomorrow. So what's the price ?
I hope your right lol, Cheaper Batteries, cheaper gas, cheaper everything would be nice :D.
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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by IBScootn » Mar 05 2012 11:28pm

Hmm, I mentioned these cells to a motorcycle manufacturer friend and he checked with his Chinese contacts regarding these cells from osnpower. Result was clarification that these are non grade A, gray market cells and if he wanted grade A cells, he would have to deal directly with A123. So, what level of quality will you get? Have the best cells already been shipped and the rest waiting for the right suckers?

It will be interesting to see how this turns out.
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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by Doctorbass » Mar 06 2012 1:48am

OUr famous Jack Richard got some from OSN and another company that he tested with fairely good results.

I think also Luke had tested them to 432 amp on his youtube video with still good voltage and they was not coming from A123 directly i think right?

So.. maybe at that price it still worth,,, I dont think that an AB or even B grade of these cells wold be like just 50% performance.

At these performances we get from our cheap sources, this still can beat any Headway or lipo at that price and performances..!

Guys we can get these 100% SAFE battery.. no need ammo box or fire worries... and we get powerfull and LONG cycle life too!...

These are probably the "nanotech" lifepo4.... at... 1/2 of thr price per wh and Watt of a nanotech...!

Some cheap source mention:
-Continuous discharge rate: 5C 100A
-Peak discharge rate: 20C 400A (10 seconds)
-we have enough stock and 100% original products
-warranty: 1 YEAR


while A123 say 2400W or 15C on this german website.http://shop.lipopower.de/A123-Systems-A ... olienzelle


Welll it's 5C continuous and not 15C continuous... that's the only thing that make me worrie a bit...


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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by SlyCayer » Mar 06 2012 10:51am

Yes, OSN also had told me that there is no such "GRADE A" cells anymore, which I also find a little bit funny.

I know my cells we're tested at 19.3Ah under 1C and 2C without any big difference in Ah, Soon, I will have my Kart finished and I will be pulling about 500 amps from 5 cells in parallel, so I am eager to see the results.
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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by IBScootn » Mar 06 2012 11:42am

OSN cells seem to have good enough capacity. So what does non-A grade mean?? What warranty is OSN providing?

Does it mean the cells only have 115 cycles of life (something we can't test until too late)? Who knows? Would you buy a cell if it had 1/20th of the life you are expecting? I don't mind buying gray market as long as I know what the defect is. I prolly won't know what that defect is until we get enough brave, wealthy souls who buy these cells and cycle them for a couple years. But by then the gray market will be dried up.

So I guess it comes down to - Do you feel lucky?
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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by SlyCayer » Mar 06 2012 2:20pm

IBScootn wrote:OSN cells seem to have good enough capacity. So what does non-A grade mean?? What warranty is OSN providing?

Does it mean the cells only have 115 cycles of life (something we can't test until too late)? Who knows? Would you buy a cell if it had 1/20th of the life you are expecting? I don't mind buying gray market as long as I know what the defect is. I prolly won't know what that defect is until we get enough brave, wealthy souls who buy these cells and cycle them for a couple years. But by then the gray market will be dried up.

So I guess it comes down to - Do you feel lucky?
I think you are 100%, it's about feeling lucky, unless you'd be able to source directly from A123.
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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by Alan B » Mar 06 2012 2:36pm

An "A" grade cell is one purchased directly from A123 under specific contract. Anything else is not an "A" grade product.

It appears to have little to do with the batteries themselves.

Or at least that seems to be the way they play it.

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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by Snickers » Mar 06 2012 3:29pm

Doctorbass wrote: while A123 say 2400W or 15C on this german website.http://shop.lipopower.de/A123-Systems-A ... olienzelle
Welll it's 5C continuous and not 15C continuous... that's the only thing that make me worrie a bit...
Doc
"•Ladestrom (max.): 300A (15C - hohe Rekuperation möglich)" => This is the continous charging current. 5C max
"15 C Entladerate" => Discharge current 15C => So for me it's 15C continous.

Well it's arround 60€ per cells :?

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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by miro13car » Mar 06 2012 10:24pm

Going back to source A123RC .
I just ordered 13 20Ah cells from there.
GRade A , QC rejects?
Just applying common sense here.
A123 RC has 9500 cells in stock right now , had over 9000 cells in stock before that but now sold out .
How can A123 manufacture can have so many rejects - it does not make sense. Also diverted from recycling , over 10,000 cells rejected since beginning of this year??
I think they are quality cells sold indirectly by A123 through back channels , A123 is swamped with this cells after losing contracts and must sell them somehow.

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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by Bazaki » Apr 19 2012 4:59am

There is so much information about A123 cells lately, I would like to order at Victpower for 18,5 USD per cell A123 20Ah but then I found this :
http://s.click.taobao.com/t_8?e=7HZ6jHx ... 4&n=63&u=0

Too good to be true ?

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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by ambroseliao » Apr 19 2012 7:29am

You can always find a lower price. However, I would never order anything from China that didn't have a proven record. Victpower has a solid rep. There's very little risk. IMHO.
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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by Doctorbass » Apr 19 2012 10:08am

Victpower ALSO OFFER ASSEMBLED BATTERY that look like the same as FOR TEH CHEVY VOLT MODULE "! :shock:

at cheap price!!
Dear:Steveo
> Here still has some other A123 modules , they are 7S3P 42S3P 1S1P 6S13P
>
> Pls download as a attached
>
> Price :42.8$ for 1s1p
>
> Price :283.3$ for 7S3P
>
> Price :1600.0$ for 42s3p
>
> Price :1052.3$ for 6S13P
>


http://www.victpower.cn/product/5527665 ... odule.html

http://www.victpower.cn/product/5527786 ... odule.html

http://www.victpower.cn/product/5527716 ... 7s3p_.html

here is the price list Steveo got form them

not bad!! they already have the connections!!:

The 7s3p look interesting! 4 of them give close to 100V pack and 60Ah !... and for... 1100$!

see at 20sec of this vid how they look like when asseembled:


JUMP TO 20sec and to 2min54




We see these packs are exactly the same as Victpower are offering.

Another showing the ingeneering fo that battery:


Jump at 1:00



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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by deVries » Apr 19 2012 4:38pm

See Link Below for More Info...
Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!
Doctorbass wrote: Price :283.3$ for 7S3P
Great find Doc! :!: :shock: :D

These are an even better price than bare cells!!! :!: :twisted:

Someone needs to sample these & then we can do a group buy of the minimum 100 order UNLESS they will sell in lower quantities.

I'll have battery $$$$ money next month in May, so I'm game for getting in on this deal. It's my belief these cells would be top quality, since these cells are already in modules as a basic building block for the final battery assembly & connections. It's very doubtful these would have any defects, imo. 8) These are probably surplus stock, because demand never materialized as expected & orders were canceled, imo. :wink:

Someone who already knows their contact should ask for the weight & dimensions of these 7s3p modules. Please! :idea: :mrgreen:

EDIT: I'm sooo excited about this module that I started a thread about whether we should do a group buy of these here... click link below...

Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!

Image

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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by arkmundi » Oct 03 2012 9:21am

Doctorbass wrote:youtube: Pwxa3zHkc_A.... We see these packs are exactly the same as Victpower are offering. Another showing the ingeneering fo that battery. youtube: h4nM7rXpsJg Doc
Thanks for the video!
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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by whatever » Oct 09 2012 4:04am

re: the taobao seller at 80rmb per cell
I bought 16 cells via a taobao seller ( got one extra for free), the ahr varied from 13ahr to 20ahr approx. My theory is a123 20ah cells have been used in some big projects in china ( maybe buses or something like that) and they replace the cells every couple of years, and sell off the old packs. Those packs are then salvaged from the packs and sold very cheap in china. The seller I bought them from does his own testing of the cell ahr, they had stickers on them saying the ahr ratings,
and as mentioned above the cells varied alot........they are definitely seconds........preused cells is my guess.
There are more and more taobao sellers popping up over time, so you might find one that has high ahr preused ( or reject cells), my guess is that most of these cells are preused on taobao. Its best to get someone in china to organise the cells you may then be able to make sure you only get 18ahr capacity cells, but they will put the price up if you stipulate this. For that price you'll get a mix of different ahr cells most likely.


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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by BrianMay » Jun 16 2014 5:25pm

to bring this topic back from the dead...

been reading around and as far as I can tell osnpower.com ir a more or less reliable source for these cells...a lot of contradictions on what A-Grade actually is, but from my reading the best cost/reliabilty option might be osnpower...

however, does anyone have feedback on these guys here: http://www.green-vision.fr/catalogue/Pr ... -20ah.html ?? they are europe based and from the picture that cell is USA made, however it does have some "wrinkles" on it which might indicate they might be rejects

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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by wb9k » Jun 16 2014 6:58pm

deVries wrote: Someone who already knows their contact should ask for the weight & dimensions of these 7s3p modules. Please! :idea: :mrgreen:

EDIT: I'm sooo excited about this module that I started a thread about whether we should do a group buy of these here... click link below...

Group Buy? Dr.Bass Steveo found 7s3p Module! Awesome Price!!

Image

The module shown in this picture is an old Fisker module, built before the bankruptcy, and probably part of the infamous recall. The only modules A123 ever built for a production GM car were 28S3P. The Spark had 4 of those modules in the pack when GM was still using A123's pack. I don't know what the config is now, but the capacity of the pack fell from 21 kWh to 19 kWh in the process. GM packs were built on an on-demand basis, and shipped to Korea, where GM has the plant that builds the Spark EV. Most packs with issues were returned directly to Livonia, and I took part in the troubleshooting of some of those parts. I won't comment on any issues we had, but I can tell you that there wasn't really any surplus, and most of what could be had has issues that would preclude it from being considered a complete good, usuable module. Pretty much all the good ones have been used by GM. I wouldn't buy a grey market GM module unless I knew what the problems with it were, and the chances that the seller would even know is pretty remote. And of course, you're pretty much buying stolen material.

The only legit source of 20 Ah cells to the general public at the moment is http://www.buya123batteries.com . Livonia is preparing to open direct sales channels to the public for raw cells and small packs, but this is just getting started. Cells may be available soon direct, packs probably later.
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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by arkmundi » Jun 16 2014 7:33pm

wb9k wrote:The only legit source of 20 Ah cells to the general public at the moment is http://www.buya123batteries.com . Livonia is preparing to open direct sales channels to the public for raw cells and small packs, but this is just getting started. Cells may be available soon direct, packs probably later.
That would be really cool. Please keep us posted.

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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by agniusm » Jun 17 2014 10:15am

Wb9k, when you say packs, do you mean existing modules or some lower cell count newly developed packs?
Thanks

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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by wb9k » Jun 17 2014 11:02am

agniusm wrote:Wb9k, when you say packs, do you mean existing modules or some lower cell count newly developed packs?
Thanks
We've been told that sales people have recently been hired to develop sales of cells direct from Livonia, and also to develop products for the consumer market like bike and Segway replacement packs. That's about all the info I have at the moment, but it would appear they are talking about new packs/products for the LEV and other consumer markets.
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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by John in CR » Jun 17 2014 11:07am

"...And of course, you're pretty much buying stolen material..."

Gotta love that comment when anything rolling off of A123's current production line is pretty much stolen material...stolen from US taxpayers. Hopefully they come up with a big breakthrough in energy density and make so much money that they do the honorable thing and pay the 1/4 of a billion dollars back some day, with interest, but I won't hold my breath.

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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by wb9k » Jun 17 2014 11:25am

John in CR wrote:"...And of course, you're pretty much buying stolen material..."

Gotta love that comment when anything rolling off of A123's current production line is pretty much stolen material...stolen from US taxpayers. Hopefully they come up with a big breakthrough in energy density and make so much money that they do the honorable thing and pay the 1/4 of a billion dollars back some day, with interest, but I won't hold my breath.
Good thing nobody else in this business ever got any subsidies. GMAB.
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Re: A123 20AH cells source?

Post by John in CR » Jun 17 2014 11:42am

wb9k wrote:
John in CR wrote:"...And of course, you're pretty much buying stolen material..."

Gotta love that comment when anything rolling off of A123's current production line is pretty much stolen material...stolen from US taxpayers. Hopefully they come up with a big breakthrough in energy density and make so much money that they do the honorable thing and pay the 1/4 of a billion dollars back some day, with interest, but I won't hold my breath.
Good thing nobody else in this business ever got any subsidies. GMAB.
I never said A123 was the only culprit, but misdirection doesn't refute my point.

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