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Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 1:33am
by Jil
Hi,
I’m going to build a high-capacity 14S battery, around 25Ah. I don’t know what to choose between the Panasonic 4250mAh (6P) and the Samsung 5000mAh (5P).
I want good current capabilities but not so high (max discharge for the whole battery 20A, max charge current 20A), good life cycle, and compacity.
Which one should I choose ?

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 9:37am
by pwd
Personally, I would pick the 5P of Samsung 50E since it would involve less connections and can easily provide the 20 amps discharge current. Other factors you might want to consider would be cost, size, weight and cycle life. If you haven't seen this already, try this site to compare their discharge characteristics at various currents:

https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2 ... arator.php

ncr20700b $8.69 USD per cell
https://liionwholesale.com/products/pan ... 0186936017

50E $6.79 USD per cell
https://liionwholesale.com/products/sam ... 7804450910


That should help you get a better idea.

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 9:41am
by john61ct
INR is NMC chemistry I believe LiNiMnCoO2

NCR is NCA chemistry, aka LiNiCoAlO2

some googling may explain relative power density / energy rates vs longevity advantages of each

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 9:51am
by john61ct

Great pricing!

Is that a known good, trusted supplier, no factory seconds BS?


Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 9:59am
by Easy_Rider
In 14S5P you have on 20A discharge exactly 4A peak current on every battery. Both NCR20700B, INR21700-50E, or even LG Chem INR21700 M50 (which I have in my battery) are suitable.
The 20A Charging current is too high for life cycle. I would not exceed, if I were you, the 0.3C for the battery. Especially the high capacity batteries do not tolerate high charging current much.

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 10:08am
by flippy
you are not going to get any decent cycle life on any of the 2xx cell form factors, not yet anway. if you want hard cycle life you need to dial it back to 18650 and stay under 3000mAh.

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 10:18am
by Easy_Rider
flippy wrote:
May 16 2019 10:08am
you are not going to get any decent cycle life on any of the 2xx cell form factors. if you want hard cycle life you need to dial it back to 18650 and stay under 3000mAh.

What do you understand with "decent"? :mrgreen:
My first battery was based on Sony Konion US18650V3 and it last at least 6 years (around 800 cycles), but the energy density was too low. My next battery was based on the INR18650-30Q and was and is still great (even at the winter time). My new battery in a little frog I bought here: https://enerprof.de/shop/batteries/ebik ... copy-copy/
Usually with 18650 battery cells you can´t reach in this case more than 3P = 10.2Ah-10.3Ah at 48V

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 10:24am
by flippy
i have done some initial testing with 21000 form factor cells and with all my testing the capacity and IR takes a nosedive after 2~300 cycles. especially compaired to lower capacity 18650 like the 2900mAh's its painfully obvious.
21000 cells are still a bit of a beta tester stage.

i a waiting on getting a bunch of model 3 cells. those should give great perspective compared to the competition.

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 10:37am
by john61ct
A123 26650 are LFP

Totally different chemistry, fantastic longevity if treated well, should use a setpoint-adjustable charger and BMS.

and great discharge rate when needed.

But less energy dense, what is the use case?


Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 11:02am
by Easy_Rider
john61ct wrote:
May 16 2019 10:37am
A123 26650 are LFP

Totally different chemistry, fantastic longevity if treated well, should use a setpoint-adjustable charger and BMS.

and great discharge rate when needed.

But less energy dense, what is the use case?
26650 in a little frog? with 48V? With LiFePo4? you need 15S so maybe enough place for 2P?! With around 5Ah not enough Wh to reach the next super market :D

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 11:36am
by flippy
john61ct wrote:
May 16 2019 10:37am
A123 26650 are LFP
Totally different chemistry, fantastic longevity if treated well, should use a setpoint-adjustable charger and BMS.
and great discharge rate when needed.
But less energy dense, what is the use case?
LPF has utter shit power density and are expensive per Wh.

with current 18650 prices and performance there is virturally never a reason to use LFP in a mobile application.
the only reason i ever made a LFP based battery was for the sole reason that the vehicle had a 12V alternator and the customer wanted a direct drop in replacement without changing the alternator voltage. this is not needed for 24V trucks as that can be used with a regular 7S lipo battery.

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 1:40pm
by DjSpaceGhost
Samsung claims 2k cycles from the 33J @ 4.1 -->3v . Is that total bull?

https://www.imrbatteries.com/samsung-33 ... a-battery/

On paper they seem to be touting it as 29E's big brother.

https://secondlifestorage.com/t-Samsung ... -for-Tesla

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 2:06pm
by Easy_Rider
DjSpaceGhost wrote:
May 16 2019 1:40pm
Samsung claims 2k cycles from the 33J @ 4.1 -->3v . Is that total bull?

https://www.imrbatteries.com/samsung-33 ... a-battery/

On paper they seem to be touting it as 29E's big brother.

https://secondlifestorage.com/t-Samsung ... -for-Tesla
Usually those 21700 have a cut-off-voltage of 2.5V. Most of the BMS have a cut-off at 3V and from my experience with a battery US18650V3 from Sony (now Murata) I used it for over 6 years, so around 1200-1400 cycles (not complete cycles). The battery lost over the time around 20% of its capacity, but I can still ride it (I moved from 36V to 48V).
Why am I telling you that?
because on the technical specifications of Sony, This battery should have around 800 cycles.
I guess, that if at that time, I had charged it only up to 4.1V, maybe I would have reached even the 2000 cycles?!
Bullshit? most probably no, but how much real capacity from 3V to 4,1V in this 21700? probably the same like in the US18650V3 (around 2150 mAh)

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 5:41pm
by DjSpaceGhost
Easy_Rider wrote:
May 16 2019 2:06pm
DjSpaceGhost wrote:
May 16 2019 1:40pm
Samsung claims 2k cycles from the 33J @ 4.1 -->3v . Is that total bull?

https://www.imrbatteries.com/samsung-33 ... a-battery/

On paper they seem to be touting it as 29E's big brother.

https://secondlifestorage.com/t-Samsung ... -for-Tesla
Usually those 21700 have a cut-off-voltage of 2.5V. Most of the BMS have a cut-off at 3V and from my experience with a battery US18650V3 from Sony (now Murata) I used it for over 6 years, so around 1200-1400 cycles (not complete cycles). The battery lost over the time around 20% of its capacity, but I can still ride it (I moved from 36V to 48V).
Why am I telling you that?
because on the technical specifications of Sony, This battery should have around 800 cycles.
I guess, that if at that time, I had charged it only up to 4.1V, maybe I would have reached even the 2000 cycles?!
Bullshit? most probably no, but how much real capacity from 3V to 4,1V in this 21700? probably the same like in the US18650V3 (around 2150 mAh)
Well this cell is supposed to have 2k cycles at that voltage and STILL have the 3200+ mAH . It was designed for Tesla's newest PowerWall supposedly. Your bike is sick by the way.

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 7:56pm
by Hillhater
DjSpaceGhost wrote:
May 16 2019 5:41pm
Samsung claims 2k cycles from the 33J @ 4.1 -->3v . Is that total bull?


https://secondlifestorage.com/t-Samsung ... -for-Tesla

Well this cell is supposed to have 2k cycles at that voltage and STILL have the 3200+ mAH . It was designed for Tesla's newest PowerWall supposedly.
Well, if you read the specs..that 2000 cycles is based on a 1.6 amp discharge from 4.1 to 3.0v , with a 75% capacity retention at the end !
So not really a useful comparison to any other cell we might consider for a “mobile” pack
But it does highlight the “compromise” necessary for high energy density vs power density, vs cycle life

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 8:11pm
by DjSpaceGhost
Hillhater wrote:
May 16 2019 7:56pm
DjSpaceGhost wrote:
May 16 2019 5:41pm
Samsung claims 2k cycles from the 33J @ 4.1 -->3v . Is that total bull?


https://secondlifestorage.com/t-Samsung ... -for-Tesla

Well this cell is supposed to have 2k cycles at that voltage and STILL have the 3200+ mAH . It was designed for Tesla's newest PowerWall supposedly.
Well, if you read the specs..that 2000 cycles is based on a 1.6 amp discharge from 4.1 to 3.0v , with a 75% capacity retention at the end !
So not really a useful comparison to any other cell we might consider for a “mobile” pack
But it does highlight the “compromise” necessary for high energy density vs power density, vs cycle life
I see your point. There's so much to learn . I love it.

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 16 2019 8:35pm
by john61ct

flippy wrote:
john61ct wrote:
May 16 2019 10:37am
A123 26650 are LFP
Totally different chemistry, fantastic longevity if treated well, should use a setpoint-adjustable charger and BMS.
and great discharge rate when needed.
But less energy dense, what is the use case?
LPF has utter shit power density and are expensive per Wh.

with current 18650 prices and performance there is virturally never a reason to use LFP in a mobile application.
Well that's like, just your opinion, man.

There are thousands and thousands of users very happy with theirs. Living on a boat, or any small living space on land as well, unattended charging and discharge with say 800 or 1200Ah under the bed, personally my **very** strong believe is LFP is the **only** safe LI chemistry to DIY.

Victron, Super-B, Green Orca, Oceanvolt, Lithionics, CALB, Sinopoly, Winston/Thundersky, GBS

are all competing in an LFP market worth billions every month, and maybe 1% of that is for stationary use cases.

I doubt many customers in the USD $10K and up per purchase category are using any other LI category.

Now, back to tiny packs for bikes, scooters, skateboards etc, sure energy density and price point are critical and thus these other LI dominate.

LFP actually comes out much cheaper **per year** if the use case is one where the bank will be used daily for many years or decades.

That's why I asked the OP's use case. If it's a Unimog expo vehicle or 60' cat, longevity and thermal stability may well be more important than energy density and upfront acquisition price.

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 17 2019 12:28am
by Easy_Rider
Many people read and think, wow this battery cell is used by Tesla, must be good also for my eBike...
So if you wish to drive with 7104 cells battery with over 80 kWh you can go for that :mrgreen: , otherwise a battery for an eBike has completly other Challenges. It must have enough power (Discharge current), enough capacity and reasonable cycle-life.

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 17 2019 2:12am
by Jil
Thank you everybody !

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 17 2019 2:21am
by Jil
Easy_Rider wrote:
May 16 2019 9:59am
The 20A Charging current is too high for life cycle. I would not exceed, if I were you, the 0.3C for the battery. Especially the high capacity batteries do not tolerate high charging current much.
20A will be occasionnal, only for fast charging when travelling. For daily use, I will limit to 4A, which is around 0.2C.
My question is, for both batteries, charging around 0.7 to 1C from time to time is possible without damaging the battery ?

By the way, I made a quick calculation, the 21700 cells of the Tesla Model 3, when charged with the 250kW Supercharger, withstand a charging current of 13A (2.5C). So if Tesla thinks it's suitable to its batteries, why shouldn't it be the case for Samsung or Pansonic batteries ? Because I made a wrong calculation ? Because of different chemistery ? Because of cooling (very good on a Tesla, generally non existent on an ebike) ?

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 17 2019 3:14am
by flippy
tesla has a VERY expensive BMS from texas instruments and a massive temperature control system capable of cooling and heating the battery to it can acutally take the power. tesla heats up the battery if you drive to a supercharger and once you hook it up it immediatly cranks up the cooling to maximum/track mode to keep the temperature from rising to much.
without the heating and cooling a model 3 would basically convert from a car to a big ball of fire within a few minutes of 250kW harging.

still, if you supercharge more then 1250kWh you get nerfed on charging speed, eventually you get nerfed down to 90kW.

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 17 2019 4:29am
by leffex
Easy_Rider wrote:
May 16 2019 2:06pm

Usually those 21700 have a cut-off-voltage of 2.5V. Most of the BMS have a cut-off at 3V and from my experience with a battery US18650V3 from Sony (now Murata) I used it for over 6 years, so around 1200-1400 cycles (not complete cycles). The battery lost over the time around 20% of its capacity, but I can still ride it (I moved from 36V to 48V).
Why am I telling you that?
because on the technical specifications of Sony, This battery should have around 800 cycles.
I guess, that if at that time, I had charged it only up to 4.1V, maybe I would have reached even the 2000 cycles?!
Bullshit? most probably no, but how much real capacity from 3V to 4,1V in this 21700? probably the same like in the US18650V3 (around 2150 mAh)
I like to try the 21700 as well. 50e to be specific. Very good for price/performance ratio and work involved to build a pack out of these cells.
FYI. I tested 200 Sony V3 cells, aged 6 years or more at 100-600 cycles. They come out at 1750mah minimum and 2250mah maximum at an average of 1950-2000 for all the cells I tested at 0,25C discharge(0,5A).

I would go with Samsung 50e. It Is always good to charge at a lower level than discharge. Jil.

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 17 2019 7:01am
by Easy_Rider
I don´t know, how the INR21700-50E are doing, I guess the same like the LG INR21700 M50?
But if you are into life-cycle, I guess the INR21700-40T will last for longer time. The discharge current would not harm them at all, and they are better on fast charging according to the specification of SDI.

Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 17 2019 12:00pm
by john61ct

Jil wrote:My question is, for both batteries, charging around 0.7 to 1C from time to time is possible without damaging the battery ?
There is no black and white definition of "damage".

Sacrificing a certain percentage of lifetime cycles to get fast charging when you need it is perfectly valid.

From the consumer's POV, means only go to a high rate when you do actually need to charge quickly.

Tesla wants to advertise as fast charging as possible to sell cars.

Once the warranty's past, why would they want your secondhand bank to last for decades?


Re: Panasonic/Sanyo NCR20700B vs Samsung INR21700-50E

Posted: May 17 2019 3:34pm
by Jil
john61ct wrote:
May 17 2019 12:00pm
Tesla wants to advertise as fast charging as possible to sell cars.

Once the warranty's past, why would they want your secondhand bank to last for decades?
Because of their image.
Advertising a battery that can last for 500.000 miles...