PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

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chroot   100 kW

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PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by chroot » Apr 15 2011 9:54pm

Howdy everyone-

I would like ask everyone of you ES members donate some funds help Edward Lyen out, I am sure you know Edward Lyen, His excellence reputation of this ES forum involve with his controllers and other stuff development.

Why:

Today April 15, 2011, I came visit Edward Lyen's place to pick up my e-bike and He repaired my controller twice so far. We went out riding together to pay visit Ilia Brouk (BMC guy), ilia replaced my 9C spokes and re-true balance rim. We had blast good time together (me, ilia and Edward), We ate the lunch together and We (me and Edward) went back to Edward's home. In half way from ilia's place, Edward Lyen ebike's LiPo sudden burst fire inside the topeak bag and I was behind his ebike really awful smell from LiPo's smoke. We hurried removed the bag and fell into the ground really MAD FIRE in front of full the tourist.

Edward Lyen really upset and felt bad even embarrassed front of the tourist watched us. :oops: :(

If you guys would like donate some PayPal funds to Lyen (lyen @ hotmail dot com). To help Lyen recoup his replacement the LiPo batteries. It would be very appreciated, Lyen is true friend and support whoever have his Lyen controllers.

Here the picture.
images.jpg
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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by neptronix » Apr 15 2011 10:10pm

WOW.....
I wonder what happened with his lipos?!? any idea? any warning signs?

Will donate when i am not so broke..
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

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gogo   10 MW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by gogo » Apr 15 2011 10:26pm

Maybe we could get him a Ping battery. I hear they're awesome.
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chroot   100 kW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by chroot » Apr 15 2011 10:41pm

@neptronix - Lyen mention, He overdischarged his LiPo cause fire. His ebike basically burst LOT smoke awful big, When we open the bag, The LiPo burst flame out from the topeak and Edward hurried remove his topeak out of his ebike to the ground.

He has no BMS protection I.E. LVC boards. It really bummed. :cry:

@gogo - Ping Battery? Maybe not, Because the Ping battery have lot sags and LiPo is better. All he needs is get LVC boards from Geoff or Gary. It would saved his butt big time.

Ping vs LiPo. Trust me LiPo is so superior than Ping battery. But Ping battery is nice plug n' play and safer. Up to Edward Lyen's wishes what he want.
Thank you Justin Lemire-Elmore - You are a HERO!

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by neptronix » Apr 15 2011 11:56pm

chroot wrote:@neptronix - Lyen mention, He overdischarged his LiPo cause fire. His ebike basically burst LOT smoke awful big, When we open the bag, The LiPo burst flame out from the topeak and Edward hurried remove his topeak out of his ebike to the ground.
AHA.... yes, i was thinking it was weird for lipo to spontaneously combust without user error being part of it ;]
Still, very embarassing.

Maybe i will send a cellmeter... :twisted: j/k,
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
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Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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Arlo1   100 GW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by Arlo1 » Apr 16 2011 12:20am

I though it would only ever catch fire if you over charged it?????
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AussieJester   100 GW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by AussieJester » Apr 16 2011 12:28am

What brand Lipo are they, dont have their original
shrink wrap i'm guessing...Bad luck
Edward glad you were not injured.

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 16 2011 12:29am

Arlo1 wrote:I though it would only ever catch fire if you over charged it?????

If I'm not mistaken, Lyen ran some feces brand Chinese discount lipo.
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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by neptronix » Apr 16 2011 12:43am

Arlo1 wrote:I though it would only ever catch fire if you over charged it?????
The main cause of failure, 90% of the time, is overdischarging it far below it's voltage range, then charging it. That's how you get a lipo fire. It can happen on the charger, or it can happen some time after the charge.. puffing is the warning sign you get beforehand though from what i've read.

Overcharging it will do it but it takes a lot of extra volts to overcharge..
So will charging it at too high of a rate..
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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MadRhino   100 GW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by MadRhino » Apr 16 2011 1:22am

Arlo1 wrote:I though it would only ever catch fire if you over charged it?????
A cell may start a fire if discharged flat and reverse polarity. Puncture is also a possibility, takes only a screw in the bag that rubs a hole through with vibration. Good that the bag could be easily taken off the bike.

If my Lipo would catch fire like that, I don't know if I could take em out fast enough to avoid damage on the bike, for they are solidly secured for hard offroad riding. I might plan some quick release emergency system, for I sometimes carry 16 bricks of 6s 5800mah that would make a spectacular fire.

Good to hear that no one was hurt. I'm sending an order for more controllers.
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aaronski   1 kW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by aaronski » Apr 16 2011 2:05am

wow that sucks. we were riding just the other weekend.

If you can't donate to another member, you can always buy from him! great controllers to any who don't know that already.

My turnigys have puffed on me twice, but when I let them cool down, they shrank again, and they still have full capacity and balance. I think I'll go back to charging them in the fireplace through.

Sorry for your loss Edward!
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liveforphysics   100 GW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by liveforphysics » Apr 16 2011 3:39am

neptronix wrote:
Arlo1 wrote:I though it would only ever catch fire if you over charged it?????
The main cause of failure, 90% of the time, is overdischarging it far below it's voltage range, then charging it. That's how you get a lipo fire. It can happen on the charger, or it can happen some time after the charge.. puffing is the warning sign you get beforehand though from what i've read.

Overcharging it will do it but it takes a lot of extra volts to overcharge..
So will charging it at too high of a rate..

Nearly all wrong as usual.
Each carcinogen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for cancer.

Each mutagen vapor exposure includes a dice roll for reproductive genetic defects in your children.

Each engine start sprays them into a shared atmosphere which includes beings not offered an opportunity to consent accepting these cancer experiences and defective genetics life experiences.

Every post is a free gift to the collective of minds composing the living bleeding edge of LEV development on our spaceship.

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neptronix   100 GW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by neptronix » Apr 16 2011 3:44am

liveforphysics wrote:
neptronix wrote:
Arlo1 wrote:I though it would only ever catch fire if you over charged it?????
The main cause of failure, 90% of the time, is overdischarging it far below it's voltage range, then charging it. That's how you get a lipo fire. It can happen on the charger, or it can happen some time after the charge.. puffing is the warning sign you get beforehand though from what i've read.

Overcharging it will do it but it takes a lot of extra volts to overcharge..
So will charging it at too high of a rate..
Nearly all wrong as usual.
You don't agree?

Every story i have seen involving lipo fires ( when the person figures out what they did wrong ) involve one of those 3 reasons i mentioned.

OK; there are some freak accident things that happen like an internal short or wiring issues but those are not as common as the trifecta of lipo fire causes.
"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them, humanity cannot survive." - Dalai Lama

My first major build: 1.6kW 8T MAC motor on a Trek 4500.
The new all-arounder: Leafmotor 1500w @ 4kW on a Turner O2 full suspension.
The monster scooter: 20" eZee on a Cannondale Semi Recumbent.
Whipper-snapper: ? on a lightweight BikeE Semi Recumbent

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newb   100 W

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by newb » Apr 16 2011 5:42am

r these the same packs he puffed a month or so back at that 100mi race or is this a new incident?

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Arlo1   100 GW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by Arlo1 » Apr 16 2011 9:14am

Neptronix.
Luke is a battery engineeer! He also has a lipo destruction video in his sig.
I would trust luke to know how to know when lipo will catch on fire.
He is a guy who out of curiosity bought $1000's of lipo and wrecked it on purpose just to see what would happen!
Last edited by Arlo1 on Apr 16 2011 10:23am, edited 1 time in total.
Does your project need a high performance motor drive, battery charger or other power electronics developed? Let's talk!
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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by Alan B » Apr 16 2011 10:07am

Sad to hear this and glad Lyen and his bike are okay. Gives us something to think about and be aware of. New Lipos are getting better all the time, but there needs to remain an appreciation for these batteries.

I have not tested Lipos for flame as some others have, but I wonder if in extreme overdischarge the cell(s) being reverse charged are at risk for conflagration?

My battery pack is also fixed to the bike. I wonder if I should incorporate a thin stainless steel cable with a ring to pull that would separate all the vet-wrap holding the batteries in place. The wiring would still be an issue, but a second pull ring on the power connectors would allow the whole pack to be separated from the bike in two pulls without touching the batteries and the wiring can be used to tow the battery pack away from the bike... Something to consider.

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Arlo1   100 GW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by Arlo1 » Apr 16 2011 10:26am

I have over distcharged my batteries to below 1 volt on three cells. And broght them back at 1c charge never had a problem I also had 2 cells at 4.35 volts and never had a problem.....
I know better but I dont own a lipo charger I just bulk charge!!!!
Does your project need a high performance motor drive, battery charger or other power electronics developed? Let's talk!
www.powerdesigns.ca
Leaf motor controller build. http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewto ... 27#p963227
YSR build http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRo8r5g4NBg
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chroot   100 kW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by chroot » Apr 16 2011 11:18am

Howdy everyone,

These are 10000mAh or 10Ah LiPo, I do not know what name of company made these battery.

Maybe you can help identify this battery.

Image


Here the extension damage on Topeak bag caused by LiPo.

Image
Thank you Justin Lemire-Elmore - You are a HERO!

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chroot   100 kW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by chroot » Apr 16 2011 11:31am

This probably why the company made quality control bad. Like you said Luke is battery engineer, He abused LiPo to death and never had incident LiPo fire. It probably because the Turnigy or Zippy are better quality control than ODD name. Who knows.

@newb - No these are 2nd incident, The 1st incident that's where it happened at 100 miles race and Hope it clear to you.

I will ask Lyen to respond this thread and see what he is going say about his LiPo.
Thank you Justin Lemire-Elmore - You are a HERO!

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by spinningmagnets » Apr 16 2011 4:18pm

Its important to post the problems that arise, so that builders can make informed opinions. And also, so that we can work together to find the best remedies.

These battery packs are sold in a very naked form, because that is what RC customers have asked for. Lots of aH per pack, and the smallest/lightest package that is possible in the least expensive form. If someone wants to add a very sturdy metal enclosure, they can. If they want to adapt an existing electronics circuit to protect the battery (or possibly design and solder together their own), they can. But most don't (I haven't yet).

The first LiPo pack I bought, I over discharged it, and then it puffed on me. The battery monitor I purchased did not come with a charging pigtail (tiny 2S LiPo pack, female BEC socket), which I would have ordered if I had known. I was impatient and thought that I would just be extra careful when breaking-in the pack and riding with it, until I got a working LVC system in-place.

Then, I taped a 2-pack of LiPo to my cargo rack for some light break-in cycles by riding around the block. I hit a bump, the packs fell off, and a car ran over them.

Cell phones and laptop computers have LiPo batteries, and nobody seems to care or be concerned at all about that. The companies that make them have very large economies of scale that allow them to design a sophisticated protection circuit to manage the charging and discharge of the pack, and then sell it at an affordable additional cost.

To those new to this sport who are interested in LiPo:

I recommend charging the packs to only 4.10V per cell, and do not discharge to under 3.5V per cell. Use a proper LiPo smart-charger (dumb and cheap SLA chargers will ruin a pack), and once you know how long it takes to charge per w/h thats drained, use a power timer to ensure the charger gets turned off. Make sure the Low-Voltage-Cutoff (LVC) on the controller is working, and add a second pack monitoring device that has some type of buzzer to warn you that the pack is low.

Don't repeat my mistakes, please learn from them.

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by Fishmasterdan » Apr 16 2011 5:20pm

I would love to donate some money. All is good.
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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by auraslip » Apr 17 2011 12:02am

Puncture is also a possibility, takes only a screw in the bag that rubs a hole through with vibration. Good that the bag could be easily taken off the bike.
Both of my topeak bags don't have screws in them, but a it's possible something else in the bag did it. This is certainly a big plus of the topeak system; you can get the bag off in less than 5 seconds!!
Its important to post the problems that arise, so that builders can make informed opinions. And also, so that we can work together to find the best remedies.
That is solid truth.
Nearly all wrong as usual.
I know you're busy right now, so I won't expect an answer, but I've read much them same thing from you. Your input is valuable and I'm sure you could reassure our fears.


How do we donate BTW. I'd be happy to paypal what I can, or send him my old topeak bag.
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Alan B   100 GW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by Alan B » Apr 17 2011 12:34am

His paypal address is in his for sale threads, as I recall.

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Lyen   10 kW

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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by Lyen » Apr 17 2011 3:49pm

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for your concern regarding my recent incident. I have to admit when something go wrong it will go wrong.

Here's the PayPal donation link below:
https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?c ... AA7WYR92EY

Or you can send your batteries, bags, etc. to:
Edward Lyen
744 Filbert Street
San Francisco, CA 94133-2752

Warm Regards,
Edward Lyen
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Re: PLEASE donate Edward LYEN - Read me first

Post by The Stig » Apr 17 2011 5:56pm

I think Lyen needs some quality LiFePO4 that will do the job just fine, with little sag. And it has a massive BMS :twisted:

Image

These headways are a much better investment than LiPo I believe as it has a much lower long term cost. And lower maintainance:)

http://www.batteryspace.com/LiFePO4-381 ... h-PCM.aspx

Maybe we could start a third party fund if Lyen wants it.

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